St. John Vianney Center Says It Can’t Cooperate with DA


“Treatment center says it’s barred from giving priests’ records to DA,” by John P. Martin, The Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct. 13, 2011

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46 Responses to “St. John Vianney Center Says It Can’t Cooperate with DA”

  1. Thanks, Susan, for bringing to our attention how Chaput is operating in “real time” when he isn’t cheerleading for indicted and suspended priests facing child abuse and cover-up allegations. The lawyers do what Chaput tells them to do. That is what lawyers always do–the clients call the shots. Chaput here is, in effect, condoning the hiding of Avery’s records, which more likely than not have Bevilaqua’s “fingerprints” on them. No big surprise here: just more of the same stonewalling. All the more reason, it is critical that Philly Catholics concerned for their children’s safety and victims’ justice keep all the pressure they legally can on the DA and Philly judges. Chaput has great clout, but not as much as an engaged Philly public. I encourage your bloggers to read the comment under the heading,” LET’S GO BACK EVEN FURTHER ” accessible by clicking on to http://ncronline.org/blogs/bulle tins- human-side/you-cant-go-rome-again It should give you a broader picture of the thin ice Chaput is really standing on. You are the People of God and its your Gospels. Just take a deep breathe and take your Church back. That breath is the Spirit and he/she is on the side of the People of God, not the side of the Roman clique and its 5,000 bishop puppets!

    • CORRECT LINK, the correct link to the major comment is to http://ncronline.org/blogs/bulletins-human-side/you-can't-go-rome-again . The comment is about half way down the first comment page and is under the heading, “LET’S GO BACK EVEN FURTHER”. It describes how we got into this mess and how we can get back to the Church that Jesus and his original disciples hoped for.

      • OOPS. One more desparate try, http://ncronline.org/blogs/bulletins-human-side/ you-cant-go-rome-again .If that doesn’t work, please go to National Catholic Reporter.org, to the main page and click on to the column in the left column wriiten buy Eugene Kennedy entitled, “you can’t go Rome again” and scroll down to the comment entitled, “LET’S GO BACK EVEN FURTHER” . Thanks.

    • Don’t take your church back…take your belief in Jesus Christ back. That changes everything!

      The people who have given their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ and who have a relationship with HIM are the Church. No edifice, just the people. HE IS THE HIERARCHY! HE IS THE ALL IN ALL.!!! wHY DEBATE ON THE TRINITY. THEY ARE ONE!

      • Gloria Sullivan wrote in part: “Don’t take your church back…take your belief in Jesus Christ back. That changes everything!

        The people who have given their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ and who have a relationship with HIM are the Church

        That is exactly and indisputably true Gloria. I desire to add: Don’t swallow the oft heard axiom clichéiche] “We are the people of God through baptism.” What they usually are saying is that they assume/believe the water they were “baptized” with did something.
        Read I Cor. 12:13
        1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

        No water [only Spirit] mentioned there.
        I am not being a one-verse wonder here; there are many supporting verses but I am being brief.Gloria is right -on that personal identification with the cross of Christ by the scriptural way i.e., faith in what Christ did plus nothing is what makes one a member of the Body of Christ and then by extension “the people of God” if you will.

  2. WOW It is http://ncronline.org/blogs/bulletins-human-side/you-cant-go-rome-again .This is tough work! Man. do I miss my secretary!

  3. From the Inquirer article:

    “Kevin Raphael, a lawyer for the hospital and Tasha Jamerson, a spokeswoman for District Attorney Seth Williams, declined to comment. Both cited a gag order issued in the case by Common Pleas Court Judge M. Teresa Sarmina.”

    In Mr. Raphael’s bio on the law firm’s website:

    Kevin Raphael is on the Board of Directors, and served for a number of years as president, of Northwest Victim Services, a non-profit organization providing counseling and advocacy services to victims of crime. With his background, one can certainly be assured of his concern, commitment and sensitivity to those victims of childhood sexual abuse at the hands of pedophile priests.

    Last, but definitely not least, Mr. Raphael is a member of the law firm, Pietragallo Gordon Alfano Bosick & Raspanti, LLP headquartered in Pittsburgh. William Pietragallo is the Chairman of the firm and his firm provided legal counsel to the Archdiocese of Pittsburgh. I have had discussions with him relative to the Church and other matters but what is of interest on his website is the fact that he studied at Loyola University of Rome in Italy.

    Let us not ever forget to ask the important question here: Are the parishioners of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia once again paying for the significant legal fees charged by Mr. Pietragallo’s law firm since Kevin Raphael is a partner at the firm?

    Wouldn’t you just love to read the Integrity, Conflict-of-Interest, Confidentiality and Professional Standards outlined in the operations manual at St. John Vianney’s, particularly in light of the fact that St. John’s Vianney is owned and operated by the Archdiocese of Philadelphia? Where are the professional associations and organizations in mental health treatment and services, both at the public and private level, who monitor, review and accredit such an institution, particularly one with such a peculiar alliance and operations arrangement.

    • Michael – Your police background comes in handy. No stone left unturned with you. Thanks for always doing the research, connecting the dots and sharing your info.

  4. http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/028/chapter563/chap563toc.html

    563.9

    not saying they were confidential with my therapy ordered because I had a problem with sexual abuse in religious life and I was under vows.

  5. The name St. John Vianney Center sent chills up my spine. There is one in near Dittmer, Mo, and it is the home for Fr Robert Larson, another pedophile priest in Missouri. Fr Larson raped at least 17 boys, and at least FIVE of his victims committed suicide in their twenties. He has new retired and lives for free at the St. John Vianney Center, courtesy of the Catholic church and your contributions.

    If you are Catholic, and you let these priests & bishops get away with this, don’t be stupid. God will ask you about it on your judgment day. You think He is going to be happy with your explanation that you just did what the pedophiles and pedophile protectors told you to do?

    For more, see
    http://www.bishop-accountability.org/assign/Larson_Robert_K_WCH.htm
    http://snaparch.com/news/otherstates/ks_5_suicides.htm

    • Glad to see you back on this site. You are a good reminder of what we need to do…………. protect kids and not back down.

  6. Forgot – does the insurance company have access?

  7. And who sits on the Board of Directors at St John Vianney? Why Mr. Lynn, of course!

  8. We must keep these stalling tacticsbefore the eyes of the public.

    We must continue to support the reporters who write these stories. Contact them and tell them that you appreciate their work.

  9. St. John Vianney is located across the street from a diocesan high school. Great planning, huh? I’m infuriated that the place is operating in that location AT ALL!

  10. More smoke and mirrors, fr. chris I am still waiting for answers

  11. Was this priest’s treatment part of a settlement? I have signed a few non-disclosure agreements myself – not involving child abuse. Lawyers may not be able to comment on current cases because of prior agreements.Read carefully some of the stories on bishopaccountability, some would ask for a judgement and treatment for the offender. Probably the best they could do at that time with the laws they had to work with.Non-disclosure was probably part of the agreement.

    That said, who do you think they would hire? A therapist that believes a priest can be returned to ministry or be cured or one who believes a priest can’t be cured. If you received large amount of business from the Church would you not fight tooth and nail? Bring it to the Supreme Court – six Roman Catholics wonder what their ties are.

    I doubt anyone on this blog would fight tooth and nail for the RCC when child abuse or sexual abuse was involved, they would hold the RCC accountable for their actions.

    • Ed, Whatever the local legal niceties, all medical and treatment records can be released if the patient consents, If the patient signed a non-disclosure agreement, it may thereby be breached, with little real consequence. Is Chaput really going to sue Avery for this breach? Anyway, Chaput could wiave the non-disclosure agreement and ask Avery to release the records. Chaput must still have clout, at least financially, to press Avery, if Chaput really wanted to. Why are the records being kept secret? What might Avery/Lynn/Bevilaqua/Chaput want buried forever? Avery was at the “rehab” center for almost a half-year and still seems to have gotten failing grades. Of course, with Bevilaqua and Lynn marking the exams, it seems no one ever failed, no matter what dangers they represented for Philly kids. Philly Catholics must continue to press by all available legal and rhetorical means, including demonstrations, to get the DA, Seth Williams, and Philly judges to blast through this stonewalling, once and for all, or we will be at this again when the 2013 grand jury report would likely be issued.

      • Thanks, actually been through this, but can’t disclose my terms and insurance role(not abuse). Very aware of the clout, was in DC and met the influential people when I bartended as a religious in the 70’s at an affair to raise funds and the influence has grown since then. Can’t believe so many parishioners supporting admitted child molesters like O’neil and Beahan. In a few months they will even have protection as various laws will protect them from being named. Just hope the catholics remember their names so if they are assigned to a person’s parish, they are aware.

  12. Michael Skiendzielewski Reply October 14, 2011 at 1:31 pm

    The issues I raised earlier re integrity, objectivity, professional and unbiased evaluation, treatment and services are legitimate. I would think that if insurance companies are involved in any way in terms of reimbursement or payment for treatment at St. John Vianney, then they would require some assurance, quality control, integrity measures in place that would prohibit those in management at the facility (in the control of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia) to involve themselves with the treatment and service processes at the hospital.

    Does St. John Vianney receive public monies, state or federal? Do they undergo any accreditation process?

    Kathy, thank you above for your compliments. It is important to keep these discussions fact-based and objective as possible at times (even though we are dealing with our archdiocesan leaders who have never experienced accountability or justification for their conduct and actions)

    • Good points

      Here is where I an coming from

      Little insurance company and big insurance company –

      Insurance companies get info why not release it to the courts.

      Little insurance company

      Treatment – not all agree on appropriate treament. I agree, red flags and agree he wasn’t cured.But sure that we can find an expert that would claim he was cured
      I am in the middle of my wife’s cancer treatment, I had a stroke and I can tell you stories about treatment, facilities and insurance companies. The number of covered visits determined when a person is released. No facts, but notice my weight lifting, which I did regularly before the stroke increased on my final eval, i can read numbers upside down.

      Big insurance Companies – book from this website mentions the insurance companies as a force working against SOL extensions because of the payouts.They affect the RCC and our legislature.

      Still looking for a letter from the Oblates that was on their website. Not an expert and not a fact but it did seem to give an impression that they needed the insurance permission to settle the caseWould have documented at that time, but was getting ready to get my kids out of their flooded university and lost the work because of electric problems here.

      Facts are great, definitely not a concern for the RCC, but as a biologist with undergraduate and grad work, I have seem “facts” given by both sides in discussions, seen statistics “lie”, and confidentiality card played

      You are right we need the facts, just found that a little “brainstorming” is just as important.

      Just a link to show why I have problems with the insurance company..

      http://www.conversationsforabetterworld.com/2010/01/abused-by-the-system-denying-insurance-coverage-to-domestic-abuse-victims/

  13. Therapists are REQUIRED by law to document and report any confession of possible suicide or abuse of a child or elder. Pastors/priests and religious organizations should also be required to do so.

    Further, all records pertaining to character and behavior (pre-seminary psychological evaluations, high school, college transcripts, seminary behavior records, police records and pre-ordination psychological profiles, medical history, family background) of candidates for diocesan priesthood should be given to a parish evaluation committee (that consists of a broad range of professionals) BEFORE that priest is allowed to serve.

    The priest abusers I have read about had big red flags in all of these areas and hsould not have been ordained. The supervision of priests is grievously lacking.

  14. In the case of SJV’s refusal to supply information required (by warrant?), they may find themselves in contempt of court…and behind bars.

  15. 563.10 reads in part: “Medical records are the property of the ASF, and they may not be removed from the premises except for court purposes.”

    If the court issues a warrant and directs the DA to obtain these records, they will be handed over.

  16. The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) of 1996 (P.L.104-191) states, “Law Enforcement Purposes. Covered entities may disclose protected health information to law enforcement officials for law enforcement purposes under the following six circumstances, and subject to specified conditions: (1) as required by law (including court orders, court-ordered warrants, subpoenas) and administrative requests; (2) to identify or locate a suspect, fugitive, material witness, or missing person; (3) in response to a law enforcement official’s request for information about a victim or suspected victim of a crime; (4) to alert law enforcement of a person’s death, if the covered entity suspects that criminal activity caused the death; (5) when a covered entity believes that protected health information is evidence of a crime that occurred on its premises; and (6) by a covered health care provider in a medical emergency not occurring on its premises, when necessary to inform law enforcement about the commission and nature of a crime, the location of the crime or crime victims, and the perpetrator of the crime.”

    How does this apply to St. John Vianney Center?

  17. BREAKING NEWS *** HELLO!

    Kansas City Bishop Indicted in Reporting of Abuse by Priest
    By A. G. SULZBERGER and LAURIE GOODSTEIN
    Published: October 14, 2011

    NY TIMES

    KANSAS CITY, Mo. — The Roman Catholic bishop of Kansas City-St. Joseph, Robert Finn, and the diocese he leads have been indicted by a county grand jury on a charge of failure to report suspected child abuse in the case of a priest who had been accused of taking lewd photographs of young girls.
    Related

    Bishop in Missouri Waited Months to Report Priest, Stirring Parishioners’ Rage (August 15, 2011)
    Bishops Won’t Focus on Abuse Policies (June 15, 2011)

    Connect With Us on Twitter
    Follow @NYTimesNational for breaking news and headlines.
    The indictment is the first ever of a Catholic bishop in the 25 years since the scandal over sexual abuse by priests first became public in the United States.

    Bishop Finn is accused of covering up abuse that occurred as recently as last year — almost 10 years since the nation’s Catholic bishops passed a charter pledging to report suspected abusers to law enforcement authorities.

    The bishop has acknowledged that he knew of the existence of the photos last December but did not turn them over to the police until May.

    During that period Bishop Finn and the diocese had reason to suspect that the priest, the Rev. Shawn Ratigan, might subject a child to abuse, the indictment said, citing “previous knowledge of concerns regarding Father Ratigan and children; the discovery of hundreds of photographs of children on Father Ratigan’s laptop, including a child’s naked vagina, upskirt images and other images focused on the crotch; and violations of restrictions placed on Father Ratigan.”

    The indictment was announced on Friday by the Jackson County prosecutor, Jean Peters-Baker. It had been under seal since Oct. 6 because the bishop was out of the country. He returned on Thursday.

    “This is about protecting children,” Ms. Peters-Baker said.

    The bishop and the Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph were charged with one count each, a misdemeanor.

    Bishop Finn appeared in court at 1 p.m. and pleaded not guilty, as did lawyers for the diocese.

    Bishop Finn said in a statement, “We will meet these announcements with a steady resolve and a vigorous defense.”

    He said that he and the diocese had given “complete cooperation” to law enforcement. He also pointed to steps he had taken since the scandal first became public, which included commissioning a report to look into the case and reinforcing procedures for handling allegations of abuse.

    Father Ratigan was arrested in May and has been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of taking indecent photographs of young girls, most recently during an Easter egg hunt last spring.

    His case prompted a civil lawsuit filed in August that asserts that between December 2010 and May 2011, Father Ratigan attended children’s birthday parties, spent weekends in the homes of parish families, hosted the Easter egg hunt and presided, with the bishop’s permission, at a girl’s First Communion.

    The case has generated fury at a bishop who was already a polarizing figure in his diocese, and there are widespread calls for him to resign. Parishioners started a Facebook page called ’”Bishop Finn Must Go” and circulated a petition. An editorial in The Kansas City Star in June calling for the bishop to step down concluded that prosecutors must “’actively pursue all relevant criminal charges” against everyone involved.

    Stoking much of the anger is the fact that only three years ago, Bishop Finn settled lawsuits with 47 plaintiffs in sexual abuse cases for $10 million and agreed to a long list of preventive measures, among them to report anyone suspected of being a pedophile immediately to law enforcement authorities.

    Bishop Finn, who was appointed in 2005, alienated many of his priests and parishioners, and won praise from others, when he remade the diocese to conform with his traditionalist theological views. He is one of few bishops affiliated with the conservative movement Opus Dei.

    • Finn’s another one who should hang for the crimes he’s committed.

      I have followed this one closely too…the parishoners are about to come unglued…and if in any way they could network with the Philly diocese, it may be a wonderful support and a great way to brainstorm things that have worked.

      The last thing the rcc wants is for you to compare stories. You might find striking similarities in the way things have been handled and how does that happen? You don’t suppose they are trained extensively about how to behave so corruptly, do you?

      So you can ask yourself, “What’s my role in this criminal organization?”

      Among many reasons why the hierarchy needed the victims silent…because they knew that the moment we started to connect the dots, we would realize how evil they really were. We’ve connected so many dots…it’s why we know it goes all the way to Rome. They seem to get all their little letters to the parishes on any given Sunday. Every diocese has strategic, systematic plans in place to re-abuse the victims and protect assests. How is it that EVERY diocese knows how to do this but claims ignorance in other areas. You don’t suppose they are an organized criminal organization, do you?

      • I just put commented on the “Bishop Finn Must Go” FB page and provided the C4C link. I have followed this closely and have been impressed with how vocal the laity in Kansas City have been.

    • Thanks for keeping us informed.

  18. Enablers providing treatment for offenders, how convenient !

  19. ex-catholic and saved by grace Reply October 15, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    Why does anyone here think change will come about in the Roman Catholic Church? Do you think they are all going to own up and fall on their swords? I think not. As you can tell by reading this thread, the evil just keeps getting deeper.

    Like Patrick OMalley said, if Catholics don’t stand up they will be judged one day before God. But I also want to add, why are so many Catholics continuing to put their children at risk with men who talk God, and then find out they think they ARE God? Why trust men who have such immunity?

    I also wanted to comment on Gloria and gerald’s post above. Excellent and Amen! Not only don’t take your “religion” back but join the Body of Christ, the real, true Church. Jesus did not come to create a new religion. What the mystery is all about is that through grace now we are created a new creature the moment we believe on Him and His sacrifice alone for salvation. Our High Priest is Jesus Christ, and through Him we can enter the very throne room of God with our prayers and petitions and thanksgiving. We are not under the priestly system today, that is OT stuff reserved for Israel Not on a religion, built of human priests and laws that don’t apply to us under grace. They don’t teach about grace like they do obeying their laws, because they want you in the dark…so they can continue to keep you, your minds, spirits and ….children under their control. In the Bible it speaks of those who “shut up heaven”…and these are them.

    When Jesus said the truth shall set you free…He wasn’t kidding. How free do Catholics feel under the law and the Roman Catholic governance? Not very. Instead we lived with constant guilt…instead we had to wonder what was really right and what was really wrong. To even question them, to have these discussions, I imagine hurts most everyone in one way or another, because in the back of ourselves some know…the RCC still has a certain control over what we were brainwashed with, most of us…since birth. There is only one way out of this…and that is beginning to trust in Jesus Christ alone. Thank God I have found truth and real freedom in Him. Yet my heart goes out to those still fighting to find the truth in what they have know as their spiritual home.

    I understand the need to help others that have been so traumatized that living is almost unbearable…and to try to help so many who are still being traumatized daily by this sick, sinfilled false religion, with false representatives of Christ. It is one of the reasons I come here…as well as to have more information to help my own still Catholic siblings.

    • I disagree respectfully. Read Scott Hahn’s “Lamb’s Supper” .He used to be a Protestant minster. He explains Revelations as symbolizing the Eucharist and the Mass. Jewish people had to eat the Lamb at Passover or they died. Thus we to must eat the Lamb of God the Eucharist or we will perish. Read the book and get back to me. It is pretty awesome. Revelations is filled with priestly imagery there is a reason for that. We need priests………just brave and compassionate and we need to work towards a way of getting rid of the clericalism that exists not get rid of the priesthood. I have experienced the graces from a good confession and from the Eucharist and it is amazing.

      • ex-catholic and saved by grace Reply October 16, 2011 at 3:44 am

        Thanks Beth.

        I agree that we need and it is Biblical to have pastors today, but I do not agree that we are to have priests. Christ is our high Priest. He is our only Mediator, for there is only one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Ti 2:5)

        I do not believe priests are for us today because the word of God tells us this. (Romans 6:14,15) Their role was done away with at the cross of Christ, when He nailed the ordinances (law) to the cross. We have bold access to the throne of God today through Jesus Christ alone. Today we are under grace, not the Law. That is the whole meaning of the temple fabric that was as strong as steel! It was a sign that those who believed on the sacrifice of Christ could freely by belief in Him enter directly to the holy of holies, the very throne room of God with their prayers, petitions and thanksgiving, without the need of a priest to mediate for them any longer! What a gift to all!

        Today a pastor is the same as the laity, but with a different job because he has given his life to God and the care of the people. To teach and preach the word of God. He is given respect, but he does not put himself above the people, he does not wear a costume (Luke 20:46) to separate himself from us, nor does he want or desire anyone to be submissive to him…like say, kissing his ring and bowing down! It is also the same role each of us has, and that is to be an ambassador of Christ (Eph. 6:20) to be soldiers and disciples, witnessing the gospel of the grace of God to the lost (acts 20:24), and also to the brethren who do not know the Mystery. (Eph 3:9) By the way, the Greek word for pastor is “shepherd,” and I Peter 5:2 says that pastors “feed the flock of God…taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.” Paul says, “Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy; for by faith ye stand” (IICor.1:24), and faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom.10:17).

        If you read the true authority, the Scriptures, not a man’s interpretation of things, such as Scott Hahn’s book…you will see that Israel needed priests and God gave them priests…and they were to be a nation of priests to the rest of the world. No Jew could just go to God…they had to go the priests, only from the tribe of Levites…to offer sacrifice to God. (Where in the word of God do you see that this ever changed? What Catholic priests are from the tribe of Levites?) This is also true for the rest of the Gentile world…if they wanted to know God they had to become a Jew, as this is what the Nation of Israel was to be, the light to the world. They denied their Saviour instead, and through the death of His Son, God opened the doors to heaven to any individual Jew or Gentile who would believe on the ONE time sacrifice made on the Cross by Christ. No priest needed. Just faith in Jesus Christ alone, who is our Priest, and by His holy name, we personally have salvation and access and conversation with God our Creator!

        Also, when Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 speak of “us” as “priests,” it is written to Jews. God promised THEM they’d be a kingdom of priests (Ex.19:5,6). Just as the Levites were once God’s priests to the other 11 tribes, all 12 tribes will someday be God’s priests to the world (Isa.66:19-21). But this will be in the Tribulation, and Revelation is a Tribulation book (Rev.1:9).

        So I believe there is a choice to be made, read the very, inspired words of GOD to US today in the Pauline Epistles…or waste time reading the uninspired musings of men who come up with things that cannot be verified in the word of God. We know we can trust the word of God.

        I’d rather keep the discussion on the word of God. Then we don’t have to worry about what anyone believes, we can simply discuss what GOD tells us directly, speaking the truth in love that we may both grow up into Him in all things. (Eph 4:15).

        What say you, Beth? 🙂

      • Beth,
        I do understand where you and others are “coming from” because someone very, very close to me is just like you and the other “faithful to Catholicism” believers. You all have a very “deep” place in the depths of the “ism” for various reasons. For some it is that they were very much involved at a young impressionable age; perhaps as a candidate for the “religious life” or the priesthood. At any rate you have strong , strong ties to the religion.

      • Have you read it? He explains what the church founding fathers took for granted and already knew and taught. Many of the founding fathers where taught by the Apostles who were eyewitnesses. Not everything Jesus did is in the Bible. The Bible was not written til many years later. How did Christianity spread but by word of mouth. The Bible was written by the Catholic church and that is who has the authority to interpret it.The writing by the founding father are awesome. Eucharist Mary, bishops etc are all mentioned.

      • gerald…….my ties are because of miracles………..

  20. ex-catholic and saved by grace Reply October 16, 2011 at 3:58 am

    “That is the whole meaning of the temple fabric that was as strong as steel! It was a sign that those who believed on the sacrifice of Christ could freely by belief in Him enter directly to the holy of holies, the very throne room of God with their prayers, petitions and thanksgiving, without the need of a priest to mediate for them any longer! What a gift to all!”

    Sorry…I left this out and want to add it for understanding. At the death of Jesus on the cross we are told that the veil/curtain that separated the priests from the people in the holy of holies…was about 3 feet thick and as strong as steel. Anyone entering there who was not a priest was stuck dead. The people could not offer sacrifices without a priest…when the veil was rent (Matthew 27:51) …it was a sign that the anyone could now enter the holy of holies as long as they believed on the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. The veil/curtain had been opened for all who believed, to enter. Hope that made it more clear.

  21. ex-catholic and saved by grace Reply October 16, 2011 at 3:58 am

    I said: “That is the whole meaning of the temple fabric that was as strong as steel! It was a sign that those who believed on the sacrifice of Christ could freely by belief in Him enter directly to the holy of holies, the very throne room of God with their prayers, petitions and thanksgiving, without the need of a priest to mediate for them any longer! What a gift to all!”

    Sorry…I left this out and want to add it for understanding. At the death of Jesus on the cross we are told that the veil/curtain that separated the priests from the people in the holy of holies…was about 3 feet thick and as strong as steel. Anyone entering there who was not a priest was stuck dead. The people could not offer sacrifices without a priest…when the veil was rent (Matthew 27:51) …it was a sign that the anyone could now enter the holy of holies as long as they believed on the one time sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. The veil/curtain had been opened for all who believed, to enter. Hope that made it more clear.

  22. When discussions get so off topic from the original post,sometimes it is better to communicate through private email. Anyone can email me at kmkane@gmail.com and I will be happy to connect you to each other .Let’s try to keep focused on victims and children.

  23. ex-catholic and saved by grace Reply October 16, 2011 at 6:07 am

    Kathy I understand that you want to keep the group focused on victims and children, but there is a lot of talk here also about the character and fabric of the Catholic Church itself, the cover ups, the priests, bishops and cardinals etc., who perpetrate these crimes against humanity. And for victims who have gone through abuse to talk. It might help to allow some discusion on the reasons why the RCC is the way they are…sinful, evil men who pray on those who believe in a faith THEY have taught to them!

    To not give truth and hope on a sight like this muffles the screams of those who have been so betrayed. I was a cradle Catholic who was betrayed on every level. I do not want to share what happened to me in total, but some of it was known, and it was still allowed, by those who should have protected me! I grew up knowing there was no protection anywhere, no floor to stand upon, and no god that could save me from His “priests” and other Catholic believers. My healing came from God, no one else. It helps me to share what has and is still healing me.

    The only thing that has made me finally, a whole person, free from guilt and fear and humiliation…was hearing the truth in the word of God. So, if all you want here is to hear about the crimes against the victims, and the “children”…what is the purpose? We know the crimes, we know the abuse, we know it was against children for the majority…we know the ruination of lives and minds and spirits. Where is the hope here if people can’t also discuss the basic truth of why these people will never change? They won’t change because they don’t have the truth, and they don’t have God. And anyone here who thinks one of these sinners, in their sin, can call down Jesus from heaven into a cracker for them to eat and share with the pewbies… are as messed up as the perpetrators who commit crimes against children with the RCC fully behind them! That is not said as an indictment, but showing just how in the forest so many are, they can no longer even see the trees!

    We read article after article here about what someone did, how they lied, how the Church protects them, how many millions and millions of dollars they spend defending the criminals and their behavior…what should be done, what might be done, that maybe next year at the conference, then the next year at the conference etc., etc., etc….but it is a false hope, because they will never change. They don’t want to change. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the RCC is corrupt to it’s roots. Yet people hope for change that never comes. So they stay in a faith that is killing them spiritually. I want to share my faith and hope, not in a religion, not in the tenets of man, but by complete faith in the only One who is really here for us, and in my belief, that is only in the person of Jesus Christ. In Him alone is salvation, freedom from guilt, freedom from fear, freedom from everything that is wrong. In Him is peace beyond understanding and it hurts my heart to hear the people that have no peace but are writhing in pain, disappointment and a broken life. There is a way out…and I hoped it could be discussed here, of all places.

    I am an ex-catholic saved by grace. My pain is for those who are in a loosing battle and don’t seem to know it, and so many don’t seem to know what to do or where to go. Instead they cling to a rotting limb that is about to fall, and I don’t want them to fall with it, or just rot for lack of truth. Gloria’s post hit me square in the heart.

    Beth…when you say you took the bait…I surely hope you don’t think I was baiting you. I was not. I support the Catholics here as I can, mostly in prayer. I just cannot support the evil and teachings that is encompassing them.

    The subject as I took it was lying, defrauding and hiding the truth…yet encouraging people to take heart and take their church back, even though they have to fight at least 5,000 corrupt bishop puppets! Wow.

    • Ex, I surely understand your frustration and near despair over talk about fighting to clean up and change the Church. It took over 1,600 years for it to reach its present sad state. But have hope and keep swinging. The pope is now the subject of a criminal complaint before the independent International Criminal Court. A US bishop has just been criminally charged. The Philly Cardinal’s top aide has been criminally charged and the Cardinal himself (Bevilaqua) may yet face charges after his upcoming court ordered medical exam. A lot of hopeful things are happening now. We must all press on in our own ways.

    • Excatholic.Thanks for letting us know where you are coming from. You are strong and brave and I am glad you have found some healing. By taking the bait I meant that in the back of my mind I knew we were getting away from the original topic of the blog.Peace

  24. To echo Kathy, I’d like to remind everyone to watch the word count of their comments. If your comment is as long or longer than a blog post, please submit it as the latter for approval. We accept guest posts. Please do the same if your comment is not specific to the original post.

    I encourage the evolving passionate and polite conversation, but I want to make it searchable by topic for site visitors. If you find conversation going off on a tangent from an original post, we can make it a new post under it’s own topic. Again, just submit your comment as a post through the contact form.

    If you’re quoting something long, better to include a link to the original if possible. Thanks for your cooperation in this.

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