Our Mother of Consolation Parish Forum On Sexual Abuse This Wed.

Our Mother of Consolation Parish Forum on Sexual Abuse

Date: Wednesday, April 18, 2012
Our Mother of Consolation Parish
The Parish Hall
7 East Chestnut Hill Avenue
Philadelphia, PA 19118
Time: 7:00 PM to 8:30 PM

The Psychology of Sexual Abuse
This event will feature two mental health professionals sharing their expertise in the field of sexual abuse as therapists, researchers, and educators. The purpose of this session is to help us to better understand the psychological aspects of this issue, for both those who have been sexually abused as well as those who have committed sexual abuse. There will be an opportunity for questions.

Click here for more info.

OMC Forum Flyer 6[1]

119 thoughts on “Our Mother of Consolation Parish Forum On Sexual Abuse This Wed.

  1. I was surprised when I first noticed this workshop, particularly since it was scheduled to be held at a Catholic Church. I noticed that Dr. Nines, one of the presenters, is a pastoral counselor at the St. John Vianney Center, the treatment center for archdiocesan priests with sexual abuse concerns. I would like to know how the staff at the St. John Vianney Center reconcile the ethical concerns of treating clients (priests) where both clinical professional as well as the client are employed by the same entity, the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.

  2. This is the parish that has held a series of meetings over the past year. Vicky spoke at the “Survivors Perspective” meeting in November. I believe there are two therapists speaking next week, one who treats priests and one who treats victims.

    The meeting I attended in November didn’t shy away from any topic. One speaker talked about her anger and betrayal and how when she attends Mass she now leaves for the homily because she cant stand being “preached” to when so much hypocrisy exists. Vicky of course gave an excellent speech and it deeply touched and educated all in attendance. I always remember one woman sitting behind me was crying and asked something like “what do we do now?”. When so many laity and parishes continue to ignore this problem as if it will disappear,the laity at OMC are at least addressing it ,meeting by meeting.

    1. Kathy, what I think I am hearing you say, is that this is a unique parish. In that they are holding forums on the abuse issue…would that more parishes did so!

      1. Joan, Maybe we should try again. When parishioners here tried to host a forum a few years ago we were met with a list of prohibitions. #1 No victims permitted as presenters.. #2 No one from outside the AD allowed. #3 Forum must present a positive view of the AD progress in addressing the problem.

        Rather than host the forum in a different venu we dicided to put the program on hold.

  3. I respect the parish’s “history” of informing people on the issue of sexual abuse. Still, the question asked by skiadvocat should concern us. (Its gist is along the lines of the AD paying for Lynn’s attorneys.) The hierarchy consists of control freaks. In controlling everything, their ends are always met. Our contributions enable their control. While, in the big picture, the parish’s forum seems good, we should be attentive to the various details of it. The “arrangement” at St. John Vianney is not ethical. Every time we have an opportunity to say that, we should say it. The parish forum is one such opportunity. Loud and clear, people should be asking why Dr. Nines’ input couldn’t come from someone representing a professional situation that is ethical, and that we trust.

    1. Hadit…if Dr Nines is the speaker, I would love to know why priest abusers can sign in and out of the facility, under their own recognizance, without someone accompanying them. Why their “self report” of their activities is believed, why the diocese is not paying for someone to accompany them.

      Trust me, this is a problem in my end of the world. The whole area of ‘prayer and penance’ is an under funded and very poorly managed area of the molestation mess!

      1. I am still back to the question of offenders wandering the neighborhoods, in civvies, unattended. Which is happening within 6 blocks of two schools AND my grandchildren. These guys ‘sign in and out’.

        The neighborhood is anything but happy about this and it’s been covered in local media.

        I don’t see why a parent in the group after listening to the presentation cannot ask a question about supervision of these guys when they are ‘out’? The answer will probably be that the Villa has a protocol that iis monitored by professionals…that oversees this issue, then the next parental question is…are these guys chaperoned or are they alone? The answer will be that they are alone, but must report where they went. The next question will be, can you trust their report, wouldn’t it be better to have someone accompany them?

      2. Joan,
        This is the dilemma of fighting SOL reform. If the rcc is going to fight it, then they must INVEST in policing these known (but not criminially charged) pedophiles. In my opinion, all the safeguards in place (supervision, signing in and out, accounting for their whereabouts, chaperones)…will not be enough to protect children, because I do not believe you can police perversion. Internet access, shopping trips, visitors to retreat centers (where my husband’s perp is living a life of prayer and penance in civilian clothes)…who is going to babysit these men wherever they go? Who is hired and charged with chaperoning them? Brother priests?

        The system in place for supervision of pedophiles is atrocious!

      3. SW, the best I can come up on the ‘who is going to chaperone these guys’ is that one, is the AD is even willing to pay for such chaperones…a major question, and two I’d like to see independent professional staff do the chaperoning…clinical social workers, or those in training.

        The cynical side of me says that until one of these ‘wanderers’ blatantly reoffends and you get a lot of media coverage…nothing much will happen.

        I totally agree that the existing system is full of loopholes…but maybe it’s a good thing that we are having this C4C discussion so that folks in the pew will understand these issues and be less sanguine about AD spin that the “problem of prayer and penance has been resolved at the Villa”.

      4. Joan, the criminal justice system, including Megan’s law among others, has already shown how to deal with child abusers. The bishops have proven repeatly they cannot be trusted to do this.

        If there are gaps in our laws, and there are, we should lobby to change them.

        We citizens are already paying in our taxes to police and track abusers, as well as paying to assist their victims and even in some cases to support convicted child predators.

        If we have to pay, we are entitled to have a say. We live in a democracy; and not in a theocracy.

        Otherwise, more victims will be forthcoming and existing survivors will continue to be denied justice.

      5. The challenge I see with these offenders is that thay have not been officially identified in the criminal justice system. They are NOT subject to civil authority discipline.

        We were looking at some stats a few blogs ago that indicate that 44% of the over 6000 credibly accused priest offenders are not even named, their dioceses or orders have not revealed their names.

        In the neighborhood that concerns me personally there are at least 7 of these guys, wandering around, who have not been so named.

        The argument that I have heard is, that it’s better to have the Church oversee prayer and penance, then to turn these guys out into the larger society where no oversight would occur.

        I would welcome input from professionals in the field.

    2. I look at it along those lines also Joan…what an opportunity to ask important questions

      1. The questions you want to ask about St. John Vianney should be addressed to the hierarchy, not Dr. Nines.

      2. Hadit, if I thought the AD would answer those questions…I would be delighted to ask them…however, suspect Dr. Nines might well be my best shot.

    3. Exactly haditCatholic, they’ve held more than one forum here in Victoria at least.
      Keep asking the same questions, and more.
      Sorry everyone.
      It’s One Universal Church.

  4. hadit, I agree but the hierarchy doesn’t meet with laity about these issues however the people at OMC did have Bishop Senior come to one of their meetings they have held this year .I am not saying meetings hold all the answers or anything like that but when you hear about so many parishes where this is not even spoken about and OMC parishioners have formed a sexual abuse forum to address these issues, I think it is encouraging.
    I realize some technical answers would not be answered such as protocol at St John Vianney but I am very interested to see what is presented in the talk and what questions I have from that info.

    1. Victoria had then Archbishop, now Cardinal Pell, who actually called at least two forums, I was present at the October 1996 one.
      Also present was now Archbishop Denis, looking all very convincing when making a public statement about the inquirey into the handling of abuse in the Melbourne Archdiocese and the suicide related deaths, now pushing 40 and STILL counting.
      He was the one who told an ex-nun who had been abused, to'”go to hell bitch”, some time ago.

  5. I just want to make it clear that this parish sponsors the meetings, not the Archdiocese. They decide what the meeting will be focused,speakers etc…which is how Vicky ended up being invited. All I can say is that so many people complain that nothing like this happens at their parish,so when this parish steps up to attempt to address these issues, I am all for it.

    1. No way would the parish be holding this forum without the AD approving it. The parish priest has run the forum by the AD. The AD approved it. Dr. Nines is a puppet to the AD. What she/he says will necessarily meet the approval of the AD (or she/he will be without a job). The laity can permit the AD to corral them into a parish church under the pretense of openness but, in reality, they will be captives to the input of an AD’s puppet. Is the laity willing to say that they’ll settle for this scenario because, well, its better than getting no answers at all from the hierarchy???

      If the forums at this church are so special, why isn’t Chaput there since he IS the AD?

      1. Actually C4C arranged with the lay people at OMC for Vicky to speak as they wanted a survivors perspective. I am not being corralled into anything. The meeting I attended was open,honest and not censored in any way.
        One of the recommendations of the GJ report was to have abusive priests receive treatment “outside’ the church not “in house”. To my understanding that hasn’t happened, so in the Phila area if you want someone to speak on treatment of abusive priests that person will be from “in house” .

      2. I’m sorry Kathy, haditCatholic is right.
        But my best wishes are for you and yours don’t doubt it for one minute.
        But I’ve seen all the tactics maneuvers et al, since 1993, even the recipient in some cases, they only now beginning to fall into their own traps.

    2. Kathy,
      While this group of parishioners from this Oblate of St. Francis DeSales parish sponsors the meetings(of course under the approval of the pastor),OMC will only invite speakers who have the stamp of approval from the Archdiocese. It is still under the reigns of the AD.

  6. The other powerful thing that happened at the November meeting was a gentleman who during the Q&A segment ,shared his own story of abuse. It was very moving and along with Vicky’s speech brought an awareness to all in the audience of the lifetime affects of child sex abuse. The problems of the church were not solved in that meeting but the first hand accounts of survivors was more educational than anything one could ever read or research.
    I don’t know how this meeting with the speakers and topic will play out but I am definitely interested.

    1. Vicky was approved by the AD to speak at OMC. Come on Kathy, you know that. Vicky also spoke at the AD Witness of Sorrow event. She was already on the AD radar. Let’s see OMC invite Rich (V4J) to speak.

      1. Not sure what you are getting at because if the AD “approved’ Vicky to be there, then fine, but they certainly did not do themselves any favors because her talk was powerful and honest and she really drove home the point of the church not being in favor of SOL reform. I know it was a positive experience in many ways for Vicky, I am not interested in turning that into any type of negative. And as well as Vicky writes….I wish everyone could have been there to to witness her speech.

        We posted the info about the meeting so if people want to attend they can, if they don’t no problem. We are just sharing info..what people do or what they think is up to them.

  7. I am glad a meeting like this is even happening.

    Where I live, no parish would be able to even hold the meeting without a green light from the diocese. Of course, we haven’t had a priest in any parish willing to even hold a prayer service for victims either, which had to be approved by the bishop as well.

    I think the AD has some say here about whether it even happens OR will definitely weigh in if there is any negative backlash toward the church after the fact.

    There is no way this church is operating independently of the AD…that doesn’t happen.

  8. My only point was that Lnewington had referred to two forums which a cardinal “called”, I was trying to express that this is not being “called” by the Archdiocese it is being run by a parish. I know the meeting that I was at was productive in ways I had not imagined and everyone left hearing from two survivors and their life expereince.It is a small little parish in a large Archdiocese,this is not changing the world or anything else but the people’s intentions were good,the speakers honest, the questions informed.

    1. Kathy,
      It’s a wonderful thing happening. I didn’t mean to be the naysayer when it comes to positive steps toward understanding this issue.

      You can’t ask for more if they are open to survivor’s speaking, answering questions honestly, and offering good information about the psychological effects of sexual abuse.

      I hope events like this are infectious around Philly.

      1. SW and Kathy, I completely agree. I think trying to go through the AD is a waste of time and just reinforces the coercive church model that has perpetuated this horror. Almost every parish has a “right to life” group. Why not ask the group’s lay leaders to hold a “right of survivors to life” prayer service, at which an abuse survivor relates her/his experience? We all know nothing speaks louder for the cause of change and justice than the moving testimony of a brave survivor.

  9. Am I correct that the AD has placed a gag order on all AD employees? If I am, would that include Dr. Nine’s?

    1. Hadit, if case you missed my late reply on an earlier thread, the International Criminal Court at the Hague, I believe, will eventually investigate criminally the pope. SNAP’S lawyers, CCR, and especially the lead lawyer, Pam Spees, are suberb and are also aware of the significance of the ongoing Philly trial.

      The Philly trial can be expected to become an important element of the ICC case against the pope, since the Philly trial is showing vividly and comprehensively the collusive pattern of three Cardinals, Krol, Bevilacqua and Rigali, with numerous national and Vatican connections over a half century period.

      These three Cardinals’ consistent pattern of hierarchical cover-ups over a half century will likely become a key element in the proof of the Vatican’s worldwide cover-up conspiracy. The pattern proves the coer-up actions were part of a pre-meditated plan and not mere coincidence.

      A reason protecting Rigali is so important is that if Rigali were shown in a U.S. criminal to be the overseer of the cover-up, it brings the pope’s neck closer to the noose!

      This is explained more, for the benefit of many, including C4C bloggers, in my current piece, entitled “Philly Priest Child Abuse Trial & U.S. Bishops Standard Operating Procedures”, accessible by clicking on at:


      1. Hadit and other interested C4C bloggers, please see the link above to my current piece on the international importance of the ongoing Philly trial’s continuing disclosures of the pervasive pattern of cover-ups as strong evidence of an international conspiracy orchestrated from the Vatican. My above comment appears to be pending in the “moderation” queue.

    2. Had it, Yes! i don’t know about Dr. Nines, but the AD has for some time placed a gag order onits employees, which is one reason many are leaving now.

  10. I don’t know how that words Hadit. I would imagine Dr. Nine is a professional hired under a contract between St. John Viannney and the AD. Ultimately, the AD is cutting the checks, but not a “direct” employee of the AD? I really don’t know.

    Certainly a gray area.

    1. how that “works” is what I meant.

      The typos and grammatical errors…putting apostrophes where they don’t belong, switching their and there…what is going on with me? I need another cup of coffee.

  11. Just ask ” How do we approach the subject of sexual abuse when we know that priests have abused and are having difficulty explaining the danger the kids and adults are facing from within the church” . Let the experts decide what they can or can’t answer.The only stupid question is the one not asked

  12. There certainly are a number of issues and concerns here. Several months ago, I made some inquiries through the Joint Commission on the Accreditation of Hospitals with respect to St. John Vianney, since it has the JCAH accreditation (purportedly the gold standard in health care). I was concerned with the conflict-of-interest and objectivity/integrity of treatment, records and services given the fact that the treating professionals at St. John Vianney are being paid by the Archdiocese of Philadelphia and the clients these professionals are evluating and treating are themselves employees of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. My best information from JCAH management as well as their documentation is that the standards of accrediation issued by JCAH have nothing particular and specific to say on this issue of clinicians and clients being paid by the same institution, in this case the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.

    This issue also impacts on the concern expressed in this blog regarding who is responsible for providing oversight for credibly accused priests when they go out into the community. Are we relying on similarly paid employees of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia to manage this task?

    1. Which is why the often overlooked GJ report recommendation that abusive priest be treated ‘outside” of the system is critical. That recommendation doesn’t get even half the attention from laity that it deserves.

      1. You can say that again Kathy, I believe it’s being the green light here, because when a case comes up, and the opportunity to bring it to the attention of the laity, let alone the public, it’s never accepted.
        In New Zealand they’re bringing it in on a low key educational level, the adults and decision makers of tomorrow.

    2. . Michael Sk., that JCAH accreditation was probably bought by the AD–like everything and everybody it “owns.”
      Sure it It’s only taken me a lifetime, but I do get it now.. BIOLOGY, PSYCHOLOGY AND THE CATHOLIC RELIGION DON’T MIX WELL !– Run from this combination… Nothing good ever comes of it! –either in a sex addict facility, or out here in the real world.
      I apologize to my friends who feel otherwise and this is just my opinion but..
      I wouldn’t spend much time listening to a Dr. Nines in Chestnut Hill– I have no confidence in her professionalism. I’d also resent taking part in an AD fake dialog/publicity stunt, showing them to be earnestly “all transparent” and “state of the art” –when it clearly is not.
      Nor do I listen to anybody else employed by the RC –Besides the fact that they don’t listen to us, it’s too irritating to have to sift through their words to find the truth. (There was a thread lately about the congregation being subjected to priestly homilies…I don’t mind them; homily-time is when I plan my dinner menus for the week.)

      St JV is a living monument to the crimes against our children by the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Philadelphia. Everything about it is beyond ridiculous in this day and age– It’s the primate house at the zoo –with no bars or padlock on the door!– (but chimps and orangutans are adorable and they aren’t serial violators of children who get paid to hide out or “chill” and be babysat for by “top notch” AD staff– using OUR donation money!)

  13. Though forums such as being held in the past and now this week at OMC in Chestnut Hill are important and valuable, most of us here involved in the struggle to protect all of PA’s children are rightfully suspect and question the motives and interest in any archdiocesan approved and/or sponsored event. Also, will real and substantive change regarding the protection of our children be effected by such forums in specific archdiocesan parishes?

    1. There is a landmark trial going on in Philly. It centers on child sexual abuse. The AD is a major player. Ok. That is the huge climate in Philly.

      Into the extremely huge climate, the AD is permitting a forum on sexual abuse to take place at a parish church. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that the AD is permitting these days that is not scrutinized to the nth degree. Either the AD sees the forum as critical to its agenda, useful to its agenda, or unable to negatively influence it whatsoever.

      I am with skiadvocat. I am struggling for justice for victims and the protection of children. The AD has done nothing but impede my objectives, and it has committed crimes. I am rightfully suspect of it, and I question its motives and interests in terms of everything it touches. It has “touched” the forum by permitting it.

      For what reason did the AD permit the forum?

      Am I to consider myself off the deep end because I think this way?

      Well, I don’t.

      1. Go get ’em, Hadit!!!! I am with you 110%. Even if you go over the deep end, Jesus is on our side here so we have nothing to fear.

        I am still trying to figure out how to implement SW’s pew spray painting thought without losing my law license. LOL

      2. Hadit,
        I don’t doubt the AD has their controlling, manipulative hands over everything happening in the AD.

        My experience has been that they do not “allow” anything or do anything unless it is in their best interest…ALWAYS. I think their long-term controls are so ingrained and strategic, that by the time something seems to benefit them, they have had their “hooks” into their prey for years. Think appointments of judges, political candidates, hirings and firings in a DA’s office, lobbyists…their connections are astounding and their pockets deep.

        So…I don’t think you are off the deep end.

        I’ve asked the same question myself Hadit…”For what reason did the AD permit the forum?” Except, my version was, “What’s in it for them this time?”

  14. The fact that this forum on clergy sexual abuse of children is even taking place at a Philadelphia parish provides hope that the dialogue between the AD and Catholics will continue and will hopefully spread to other parishes throughout the area. It is a start and an important one at that. Both sides need to respectfully listen to one another and ask plenty of questions to keep everyone accountable.

    1. Irene,

      Are you aware of how the AD has “managed” the issue of priestly sexual abuse over the last few decades? Are you aware it is defending its practices in court? Are you aware of how it has treated the faithful over the decades? Do you think that all of a sudden, in the middle of the trial, it has had a change of heart, wanting to “respectfully listen” to Catholics and be held accountable for its actions and inactions?

  15. Thanks for your comment, hadit. I am too painfully aware of this “managed” issue as well as the hierarchy’s “managed” issues of married clergy and women priests and mismanagement of our funds, etc., etc., but I think we need to take the higher ground. We should be a good example to the hierarchy even when they don’t set a good example for us. The best hope we have is in the gospel, and they can never take that away from us. We stand by the victims and for truth.

  16. I have read on this blog many of your great questions. Sharon King is my therapist with whom I have worked with for many years. Believe me, she gets it. I believe this forum will be very informative and interesting. I will be there along with Sharon and a few of my “new” friends that I have been honored to meet through this blog. Please try to make it, you won’t be disappointed. I will ask some of these questions of Mr. Nines when we have Q& A.
    Let me take this opportunity to thank all who responded to me to my letter to c4c. Every on meant a great deal to me. If the letter helped one person or one victim understand each other, my intent was realized.

    1. Vicky, I am going to try my best to be there, have a few things to work out. Sharon will bring the same passion and knowledge to this meeting as you did to the previous one. I am thrilled that she is the therapist speaking representing her work with survivors,Your speech opened hearts and minds in the room that night, you could literally feel it in the air.

  17. No Hadit, you’re not off the deep end. You are making perfect sense. It’s too little, too late. I have lost all faith and trust in them.

  18. Well at a meeting the AD has no influence over happened this morning. Our justice4pakids seminar bringing together professionals,prosecutors, pediatrician, parents, survivors and advocates. It is so important to work for better laws and better services to protect children in Pa. We need more people to get involved. One of the speakers even equated it to the civil right movement in relation to civil rights for children. Children need us to speak up for them,they can’t do it for themselves. Use your anger to do something for kids. One of the prosecutors spoke about how an 8 year old described her abuse by a family member, “he murdered me” is what this child said. We simply have to do more for these children.

  19. Reid, if you are on this thread, Thank you for the excellent info you provided during the Q&A, I am sorry I didn’t have the chance to meet you after the meeting.

  20. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo3FLrfiJzQ

    State elections are happening. Have you contacted your representative lately? My brother sent me this video, he does accompany children victims to court. For the record endorsing the moral obligation to protect kids, not the candidate – don’t know him but like his message.

    1. Ed,thank you for posting. Mark spoke at that rally on behalf of Justice4pakids. If everyone could take a few minutes and watch this video to understand what needs to be done to help children in Pa. Children don’t just need your anger about abuse,they need your involvement. In the end all the blogs in the world ,will not protect children,it is the laws that will protect children and hold institutions accountable.
      And a little background on how justice4pakids was formed. Maureen Martinez was a member of a parish that had a priest suspended last year. One Sunday on the way out of Mass she encountered a female parishioner who was also a clergy abuse victim, distributing literature. She stopped and talked and listened. From that conversation came justice4pakids which Maureen co founded with Bob Riley another local catholic who could no longer just stand by in this crisis. And in the past
      year our reach with justice4pakids has been far and wide in many ways.in many areas. People need to stop talking and get INVOLVED. Listen especially to the last minute or two of Mark’s speech and then ask what yourself what you are doing to help children.

      1. I realize the way I wrote this it may have sounded like Maureen was also a clergy abuse victim..she is not. She is just a woman who decided to help children and for the past year has rolled up her sleeves and got involved with what will ultimately help children..Pa. Laws.

    2. Ed – Were you one of the persenters at the Witness to the Sorrows discussion that was held at Saint Charles Seminary?

      1. no, live far away from Philly and not a victim, just was a religious and when the SOLs are lifted and laws changed, I want justice for all victims and try to keep tabs on those who have abused and have been accuse. Unlike child porn, the laws make it difficult for rape victims to get the justice that is due.

    1. Good find Michele. Thanks much.
      Nines is a permanent deacon in Philadelphia AD.
      Now, we really have to question his integrity and more importantly…his loyalty.
      Happy birthday Hadit.
      Sounds like you were blessed with a great mom.

      1. Michele
        My mom confronted one of the superiors that changed to an order. That’s my former life, that is in my past. They don’t get it. Like murder victims, rape victims can’t make their life whole again. When I read of the courage of Vicky, V4J, Mark, james, other victims I names can’t remember at this moment and the parents of these victims I am inspired. When I read of the above story I get sick of the priests praying for vocations – they lost one there. A parent approached me a few weeks ago and asked me” how can a parent support a son becoming a priest?”

      2. Hadit, yes a non-religious had a passkey, yes there was a large population that were acting that way and I probably knew all involved including the person ordained and sadly, I taught at the school of the victim when he was there. I confronted te behavior when I was at Brisson and was told they weren’t religious in 77. A few months before I was sent a letter asking me not to marry. My family sent a video of one of these men, I sent this article back – haven’t heard his name mentioned again. Guess he won’t tell someone he knows ed again. I didn’t leave the Oblates because of the abuse – I left because of a medical opinion that I was ready to have a stroke trying to combat abuse. Sorry to say, could not get the support I needed from those who knew. What we see as grooming now actually was acceptable then. Just got involved with a grandparent needing extra help for her grandson. She was told of the pitfalls of asking the “wrong person”

        Joseph Nines? is that the same? “Joseph Nines, a seminarian at Brisson from 1981 to 1986, said he was unaware of any sexual impropriety during that time but heard allegations about it from other seminarians a year after Fitzpatrick left.

        ”I was told about some things that went on then, such as sex between seminarians,” Nines said”

        Sorry, a lttle tired now – little background.

      3. ed,

        Joseph Nines spent 4 1/2 years at the Brisson seminary. He admits to hearing about sexual allegations there. I don’t believe that in 4 1/2 years he had no first hand exposure to it. There are only a few seminarians who do not have such an exposure. If he didn’t, then he defies the norm. Of course, we know Nines is now on the professional staff at St. John Vianney, and is employed by the Phlly AD.

        Do you see any reason why we should not support Joseph Nines plan to present on the psychology of sexual abuse at the parish church on Wed. evening? Considering his background, history and present position, might he be bound to some sort of specific “spin” on the issue? Would the “spin” be advantageous to the AD in any way?

      4. Hadit, his dissertation abstract is as follows:
        Sexuality attitudes and the priesthood
        by Nines, Joseph L., Ed.D., Widener University, 2006, 175 pages; AAT 3239892
        Abstract (Summary)
        The recent discovery of widespread sexual misconduct by priests in the Roman Catholic Church in America has not only changed how the Church is responding to priestly sexual abuse, but has also resulted in an increased interest into the cause of such unacceptable behaviors and has brought the topic of priestly sexuality and sexual development to the fore.

        As a result there has been much written within the last few years dealing with questions about the formation of and support structures for active Roman Catholic priests and seminarians. However, these articles, studies and commentaries have focused primarily on the acts of abuse and the psychological and legal ramifications for the perpetrators and the victims.

        Some have suggested that celibacy and the priestly life provide sexually under-developed men with a place of refuge from their sexuality. Even worse, some have proposed that the priesthood is a breeding ground for sexual repression and that this is to blame for the acts of abuse of minors. One area that has yet to be investigated is the attitudes of Roman Catholic priests toward sexuality itself.

        This study assesses the attitudes toward sexuality of a sample of active and resigned Roman Catholic priests in the United States as regards contraception, abortion, homosexuality, masturbation and sex outside of marriage. The differences and similarities among these attitudes are compared and discussed. The attitudes that one has toward sexuality shape the belief system and behaviors of the individual.

        Assessing these attitudes and comparing them among priests both active and resigned is one way of understanding how the Church can respond to accusations that the priesthood provides an unhealthy atmosphere for sexually repressed men. It can also serve as an impetus for a more proactive role in recognizing potential sexual problems in thepriesthood and assist in planning and implementing curricula for the formation of seminarians.

      5. Hadit, 1984 incident, 2009 news article (should Joe B be identified as a therapist) so I don’t know but will ask a few people. Left from DC in 1982 so I have no idea of who he is Priest that I have been tracking was arrested but released – I sure knew things were happening – discussed it with my oblate schooled brothers(siblings) and cousin and had it out with one priest. Was asked to stay in DC, but needed to check on my family – brothers. So he(Joe) could be great, but didn’t know the signs at the time. I hope his eyes are open and he supports the victims.

      6. http://www.iiculture.org/details.asp?idOfEvent=216

        one of the workshops that Dr. Nines attended- strongly influenced by both the Oblates and AD. Let the guy speak take notes and ask questions, the victims will know if he is sincere.

        I have posted about Father Harvey before, knew him in DC. He is deceased and some have called him an enabler – Church’s reaction to the sexual abuse scandal – blame homosexuality. What happened at Brisson was happening in DC – think Fr. Doyle mentioned some of that activity in his 85 report.

      7. Hadit, the Nines abstract suggests

        …”even worse, some have proposed that the priesthood is a breeding ground for sexual repression and that this is to blame for the acts of abuse of minors..”..(Nines then researches priests attitudes towards sexuality) and finds explanations that answer:

        …”.the accusations that the priesthood provides an unhealthy atmosphere for sexually repressed men”.

        Ed is probably right, attend the lecture take notes ask questions..the victims will sort it out.

        There’s a part of me that hopes the victims are not hurt by this encounter.

      8. Hadit and all thank you. . Praying that a dialogue opens and the victims have their say and hope that the river in not polluted with BS from the AD

    1. No, Rich, you do not have to walk through the church at all. There is a separate entrance to the hall. It would make sense that the people invovled in this event, (an event wherein abuse survivors might attend), would not require a walk through the church. To their credit, the group at OMC is sensitive to the fact that doing so might cause alienation for those so deeply affected by the scourge of sexual abuse. Hence, I can appreciate they chose the parish hall for this event.

  21. I’m baffled why this event is taking place on the property, and actually “inside” of a Catholic Church. The Church has never been responsive to our needs and our desires to expose our abusers and those who harbored them. Why now? What has changed? Or, should I wear my dark glasses and baseball hat to hide and protect my identity?

    Why was a Catholic Church, or rather a Catholic Parish, chosen as a venue to host an event directed toward sexual abuse by (Catholic) clergy? The water tastes funny.

    1. This type of event is what Kathy and I have hoped would begin to happen – an education of those in the pews. And what better way to reach them – than within their very own parishes. It may be imperfect, but it’s a start.

      1. I understand that, Susan, but my fear is two things. First, I do not like Catholic Churches, which I know I have made abundantly clear in the past. Second, I’m worried that this might be another tactic by the Catholic Church so that in the future they can claim “Well we’ve hosted events to educate people about sexual abuse, or to offer support to the survivors,” when in fact the Church’s attempts at this in the past, in my experience anyway, has never been genuine.

        For a guy like me, who doesn’t trust anyone, it’s difficult to accept who is genuine, and who is playing games for those in the pews.

      2. V4J,
        In college we use to say take your “BS spray” with you. You will know when to use it and when not to.

      3. Susan,

        I think reaching people “within their own parishes” is the best way to collect them, and the worst way to educate them. Everything that happens in a parish setting is to the liking of the diocese. Maybe the reason so much denial continues among the sheep is because they receive their “education” from the Church.

  22. Rich, Sharon is speaking on behalf of victims, we both know how sincere and educated she is especially in this field of sexual abuse. The parish is the same one I spoke to and in my talk I told them that if they were to ever understand how a victim feels, you must hold these meetings NOT in a church. I said this because when I walked in to give my speech, they were just finishing up exposing the blessed sacrament. Thank God, I had enough therapy under my belt I could handle it, but it wasn’t easy. I will be there supporting Sharon, also asking some pretty great questions of our Dr. Nines. What I have read of his dissertation which in fairness I haven’t read all of it is I don’t like the soft words he is using e.g. boundary issues, and for me he is bordering on protecting the church by how he puts forth his thoughts.

    Rich, I totally understand how you feel about not trusting the church. They sure of not gained any respect from us as they continue to lie and protect themselves however, I want to give this guy a chance and everyone is right on this blog, the victims present will know if he is sincere or another one of the archdiocese’s lap guys.

    1. Vicky,

      Dr. Nines spent 4 1/2 years in a seminary riddled with inappropriate sexual activity. He admits only to hearing about it. I find it inconceivable that he did not experience it first hand. If he did, he failed to follow through on doing something about it. He is among the hundreds of thousands of seminarians and priests who were “aware” due to first hand experiences.

      Nines is one of them… one of the clergy. He works with the clergy, is paid by the AD, and is a deacon.

      1. I agree Hadit, He’s completely submerged in the tank with the AD and even works for their weird pedophile holding facility. I don’t respect his credentials and wouldn’t pay attention to much he has to say about sex or sex abuse or offenders. When it comes to these subjects, I prefer “real science.”–not the catholic church’s nauseating spin on it.

    2. Vicky,
      How those priests perverted so many things…………….it’s horrible…………absolutely horrible……what should have been good they made evil and evil their good……thankyou and V4J for what you are attempting to do.

  23. Haditcatholic and all the others who responded on this blog, All of you were correct. I went and met Rich at the forum my thoughts were is that Dr. Nines protects the church! Both Rich and I called him out on some of what he was saying. Rich walked out and I got told to not yell out, I felt as though I was treated as if I was back in catholic high school. Nines, lectured uthe difference between a pedophile and men that like younger boys not just 13 to 18 year old boys, like we don ‘t know. I will say more later, I needed to let all opf you know I felt it was a waste of time listening to tell us that these priests are only human.

    1. I went to a gathering of concerned Catholics who had been generous with contributions over the years. They were sincerely upset by what was happening in the Church but very much still in denial. Many wanted to cling to the cliches. An order priest who works for the diocese attempted to minister on the subject. He seemed well-intentioned but uninformed. He towed the party line. I called him on the facts several times during the event. Then others got braver and began asking deeper questions. It remained cordial and polite. Some left the same, but others left far more aware and willing to question. These events, although imperfect and not fulfilling for us, may have had an impact on others. Who knows what attendees were thinking as they drove home last night…

      1. I have the same line of thinking as Susan. I have been in so many situations this past year ,meetings, conversations,,not always people who are on the same page as me. What I try to do is ask questions..not expecting any real answers or people to now turn around and agree with me 100% ,but rather plant the seed. I think we have to engage in situations that not everyone sees things the same way..if not ,we are just all talking to each other. I know the meeting Susan referenced attending, is not her usual crowd and I know what she spoke of and the questions she asked at that meeting. Had she not been there, no one would have spoken to the things she did. I could not make it last night,but had a whole list of questions for Mr Nines..not that I was expecting answers..but to let people know that people are questioning and raise awareness within groups at meetings . Actually I have never received any answers to my questions over the past year…because there aren’t any other than admitting this all has been criminal…but why not ask the questions to let them know you are watching. I don’t think this should be the responsibility of survivors to do this. If there were parish meetings taking place I would be showing up to do exactly what Susan did at the meeting she attended.

      2. Susan, I’m glad you went to the meeting and asked real questions! (too darned bad it had to remain cordial and polite! I was hoping to hear about some fireworks! LOL) What do you mean above, when you state that the group had been generous with donations over the years? Were they mostly older people in attendance?

    2. Vicky, did Sharon get to respond to his talk …any interaction between the panelists or just separate talks?

    3. I respect everyone who attended the program last evening, and I am thankful that you were in attendance. Its imperfections are enormously informative, and information is what we are all about. I look forward to further comments and insights on the program. Thank you, everyone.

    4. Vicky, I now feel even worse that I could not be there for you and Rich. Martin

  24. Excuse me, we are about justice for victims and the protection of children. Knowledge and information is our tool.

  25. Imperfect? Informative? Insightful?

    My fear is that someone who went to that “spectacle” last night actually takes away the comments of Joe Niles as “informative and insightful,” because not only is this guy completely full of shit, but he’s also very dangerous. Joe Niles was inaccurate and deceptive. He danced around the truth by feeding the “few” people in attendance legal definitions, the “humanity” of a predator, (which is what caused me to interrupt him from across the room, and walk out. My dog has more humanity than the man who held me down, and pushed me against a urinal so he could rape me.) and absolutely nothing he said made sense. I think it was his objective to confuse people. He called the sexual abuse of a child, as opposed to an adult “murky, and confusing.” What is confusing about a grown man raping a 10 year-old?

    Joe Niles claimed that 90% of offending priests he had worked with only abused one child. Ah… can I say something here? YEAH RIGHT!

    He also claimed that predator priests are “now exposing themselves and seeking treatment.” I doubt that’s true, but in the small chance that it is true, I wonder why? Are they scared their victims might come forward and they want it to look like they sought “treatment” in the past?

    Joe Niles spent 30 minutes talking about the difference between a pedophile and an ephebophile, and how one predator prefers pre-pubscent children, whereas the latter prefers post-pubscent children, and someone who rapes a 13 year-old shouldn’t be classified a “pedophile.” Does it really matter? Was that really worth 30 minutes of my life? It’s rape! Who cares what terms you use to describe an “animal” who physically forces anyone into a sexual situation?! Is “scumbag” a better word?

    Joe Niles talked about the difference between “situational” and “predatory” abuse. He claimed that situational abuse is when an adult accidently rubs up on a child in a sexual manner without intent. Huh? Did anyone else hear this? I made sure to underline that comment and highlight it in my mind. According to Joe Niles, situational abusers are different from predatory abusers because it’s a spur of the moment decision for the situational abuser to sexually assault a child. YEAH RIGHT! What would I do in the situation of being in a room full of children? Hm… what a tough question, but I think I have an answer… I WOULDN’T SEXUALLY ASSAULT ANY OF THEM, because I was in the situation of “protecting” them, and a child is trusting me that I would never hurt them or do anything to cause them pain. Situational? Predators seek out situations where they can abuse children. (The only reason an adult is ever placed with the care of a child is to protect that child. If it wasn’t for predators parents would have no need to “trust” someone to look after their child while they’re away.)

    This was damage control on the part of the Catholic Church last night, or smoke and mirrors, and how stupid I feel now for even attending. I knew “the water tasted funny,” and I didn’t listen to my gut. I have been manipulated enough in my life and I can smell bullshit from another continent, and the only real accurate information the attendees heard last night was from Sharon King, who was cut off before she could finish. The Catholic Church doesn’t appreciate it when someone calls them out on their lies and actually tries to tell the truth. Honest and dedicated people get cut off.

    I’m a glutten for punishment, because I am so upset and enraged about the comments and “accurate information” purported by Joe Niles in that room last night. My fear is that anyone of the 25 people or so who attended will actually believe anything that man says.

    Last night, the Catholic Church didn’t set out to protect children. The Catholic Church stirred the pot of lies. Once again, the only real work being done to protect children and to find justice for those already victimized is being done OUTSIDE the walls of the Catholic Church.

    Joe Niles defends child abusers by calling them “imperfect people.” Yes, they are imperfect, but not because they are people, but rather because they are animals.

    1. V4J…I am so sorry you were caught up in that dog and pony show. Your remarks about the evening being an effort by the Church to protect itself and the cutting off of Sharon King…

      What a self serving mess. But many thanks for the report!

  26. Rich, You give a very accurate account of what happened last nite. The male moderator was vedry rude to Sharon. He didn’t like hearing the truth she was saying and when she asked for 2 more minutes to talk about healing, his response was a resounding NO! He was angry at what she had said about the pain of victims and how we suffer and how it is how the catholic church set it up. Dr. Nines also took jabs at Sharon which was very unprofessional and often said He didn’t agree with Sharon. They weren’t there to listen they want to hear the same bullshit that nines was spilling out. When Nines said that they are {perps} are ONLY human and that many of them are sorry for what they have done and that MOST ONLY offended onced, I just could not take it anymore and neither did Rich. I said to Nines and I was sitting in the front rows right in front of him, “What you just said is stinky, you have insulted every victim in this room as well as every victim in this archdiocese.” If these priests are so sorry for what they have done, name the children you raped hand them to the police and then beg each victim you raped and ask for forgiveness. How dare you protect and excuse what these evil men have done, to say nothing of the many children who through their awful pain could no longer sustain themselves and ended their lives. Sharon said to me afterwards that in all of her professional career this is the worst experience she has ever been through/ You all will hear shortly from someone who was there who is not a victim and who could hardly lift her head from her hands she was that upset. So, you have heard from Rich and I and you will hear fromJane.

  27. Rich,

    In your opinion, what seemed to be the frame of mind of non-C4C attendees, and what effect do you think Nines had on them?

    One of the things you seem to be saying about Nines is that he sees his patients and their crimes through a sort of humanistic lens. In projecting a human nature on offending priests, he intends to remove any priestly myths that have the effect of holding priests to higher behavioral or moral standards. When offending priests are humanized, it necessarily opens the door to treating them in a caring, compassionate and forgiving manner. “You can hate the sin, but you cannot hate the person.” Or “sin is normal considering our inclined to sin nature.” The result is that the tables get turned, people who object to this kind of treatment for “human-priests” become the bad, mean and demonic ones. When people are made to feel bad, mean and demonic they avoid being angry at anyone, they avoid seeking justice, they avoid protecting future victims, they avoid scrutinizing the rehab treatment and its policies, and they avoid exploring the institution that permitted the offending behaviors. They just altogether avoid and deny everything lest they appear, god forbid, less than human. It’s this kind of spin that greatly influences the sheep in the pews. It has the effect of an opiate.

    1. Let me add that a similar kind of “drugging” is going on via the homilies delivered in Church these days.

    2. Hadit,

      I don’t believe in sin. I believe in right and wrong, but if you want to use the word “sin” to describe someone who rapes a defenseless and innocent child – I hate the sin and I hate the sinner.

      I don’t know who in attendance were C4C people and who were not. I know you people by your nicknames on a blog. For all I know, you could be robots on the other end of my ethernet connection. But it was only after the meeting did I have the opportunity to meet Michelle and Beth, who blog on this forum. Also, there was a victim who identified himself last night as having driven all the way down from North Jersey for that meeting, and I didn’t get a chance to talk to him, because I left the room very upset with the comments of Joe Nines. If you’re reading this, please contact me. (Victims4JusticeNow@yahoo.com)

      My fear is as I previously said, that I’m worried about the people who attended that disaster last night walking away from it believing anything at all that Joe Nines had to say. His facts were not facts at all, but rather inaccurate nonsense and lies. His comments were outrageous and very dangerous, and it is my belief that speeches like his result in children being abused. I was wrong to call abusers “animals,” because no species in the animal kingdom can be charged with raping their young. If you’re like me and you have the memories I do, it’s difficult to imagine those abusers’ humanity. They are definitely creatures of some sort, but I’m still not convinced they are human.

      I have always referred to myself as a “victim.” I cannot call myself a “survivor.” It just doesn’t feel right. I can’t call myself a survivor when children are still experiencing what I had to go through and I haven’t been able to protect them and stop the abusers. I can’t call myself a survivor, because I’m still hurting. My heart is on fire, my brain will not stop shuffling the memories around, and I wonder why it won’t disassociate now like it used to do for me. I’m still f#cked up in the head, I’ve got so many issues I thought I’d already dealt with and I’ve got other issues I’m scared to deal with. I like being alone but I hate the loneliness, if that makes sense at all? I’m not entirely sure who was at that meeting from C4C last night, because I don’t talk to many people I don’t know. I’m usually quiet and reserved until I can figure people out after awhile. Sometimes that takes a couple of hours of just watching people in a room, sometimes I can figure them out just by listening for a few minutes, and others I have seen around for days, months, or years I still can’t figure out. I tend to stay away from people who look like my abuser, or smell like him, or just have some of the same mannerisms and characteristics he had. There was one person in the room like that last night, and I made sure I stayed far away. I didn’t panic “for once” but I had to keep my distance.

      How could I possibly consider myself a “survivor?” I have survived nothing, because the abuse for me feels like it just happened this afternoon, when I was overcome with a raging panic attack, and my panic attacks is the abuse happening all over again. At 35 years-old, that’s some scary shit!

      I don’t ever talk about the details of my abuse, because it’s very personal to me and very hard to talk about, but I will, one-on-one, if maybe something I can say about my own life will warrant you to ask tougher questions, and if you can hold people like Joe Nines accountable for his misinformation and betrayal. I don’t want to give away that part of myself, but I will, if the end result is that children are protected because you were enraged and you decided to do something about it, other than writing on a wall.

      The world needs less gods and more superheroes!

    3. Hadit,
      If the abusers recognized the humanity in the victims they never would have been able to abuse them…….lack of compassion and empathy is their trademark ……….then Dr. Nines asks them to acknowledge the humanity in the offender…….it does not seem to make sense if all the offender does is go out and offender again……..

  28. Dr. Niles
    Did seem like he was towing the party line . I will not repeat what was stated above that I pretty much agree with. In addition I really thought that the pastoral questions like how can a survivor like me receive the eucharist from a priest when he might be a pedophile”? Or “what catholic theology can I use to teach my kids this is wrong? Were not answered as frankly or direct as possible. The whole thing was kinda impersonal and too structured. One thing I did find interesting is that he noted that porn laws had longer sentences than many offenses that involved contact and even raping the victims because the porn laws were newer.So I asked him did he think the laws should change and he said yes as long as people are not targeting the church and are fair to public and private insitutions.

    1. I felt horrible when the victim asked about communion…….it’s absolutely criminal to rob some one of their faith and comfort they get from it. Totally robbed……i don’t know where I would be without my faith….. What do you say to that/ Yes your right……..you have no idea if the priest is a pedophile or not. I guess the best we can do is check the list of predators make sure your priest is not on it……..then like a therapist shop around til you find someone you are comfortable with and get communion from only that priest……..can you really expect a survivor of sexual abuse to do anything less? I wish I could go and introduce him to a priest I trust. That comment really made me understand the damage that has been done…….as for theology……..reading the Bible where it says we are the temple of the holy spirit and we are made in the image and likeness of God says how special we all are and how important we are……..to violate us is to violate God and the holy spirit. Also theology of the body has helped me understand why abuse is wrong and ironically how the offender priests are not following the teaching of the church……

      1. Beth,

        Every priest I come in contact with, or I see on TV or other places, I look up on bishop-accountability.org. If they aren’t on BA, I search their names through Google and I’ll spend hours trying to find out anything about him.

        When I was told the name of the priest who would be giving my mother’s service, I searched his name on BA. I searched his name on Google, called Bob Hoatson, and asked around as much as I could about this priest. I couldn’t find anything about him, but then again it’s the ones we don’t know about who should worry us.

        During my mother’s service this priest used Saint Francis De Sales in his homily. Isn’t that weird? I thought for sure this guy was trying to trigger me! What an asshole! I was abused by an Oblate of Saint Francis De Sales. Some of my fellow victims/survivors came down from North Jersey, including Bob Hoatson, to support me through my mother’s service. They all believed that priest was trying to trigger me. He could’ve used countless other saints! St. Jude was my mother’s favorite saint and he knew that because St. Jude’s prayer was on my mother’s mass cards. (But, you failed asshole! You didn’t get to me. Better luck next time!)

        Later that day, I found out the priest actually serves on some kind of committee within the church regarding clergy sexual abuse. I put the work in trying to find out more about this guy, but it just goes to show you “how many we don’t know about,” clergy abusers or their supporters and defenders.

      2. V4J,
        Trust is so fragile and so difficult to regain. What you are saying makes totally sense considering what you have been through but I never would have thought about it that way if I had not heard from you and other victims…..

      3. Beth,

        It was really nice meeting you. Thanks for sitting with me and talking. I’m angry at myself because I had a feeling this thing was going to be garbage and I’m angry that I got sucked into it and I made the long drive up there. But I’m also glad I made that long drive because I met you!

      4. Rich,
        It was great meeting you and Vicky also. I understand what you are saying but I don’t think it was a complete waste. I learned alot and in away you both kept it honest. I do wish it could have been more of a discussion but there is alot of fear concerning the truth in the church right now. to be willing to hear the truth one must first be humble and that is difficlt for many of us to be.

      5. To Vicky and V4J, I am sorry this event turned out to this way. As a non victim I have no problem attending this type of event,asking questions,speaking the truth etc…because it often shows me how far we are from actually getting to the truth but I absolutely feel this type of interaction can be so damaging for victims in so many ways. When Vicky was a speaker she had the power to inform and educate but as an audience member..a completely different feeling.
        I had a conflict and was unable to attend,I had a lot of thoughts and questions..again not expecting answers…just wanting to raise the questions. Abusive priests being treated “in house” is the same as taking an abusive Patriarch of a family and having a young cousin who is a therapist, treat the Patriarch patient. The dynamics involved would never allow a true therapeutic experience to take place. It is one of the most important Grand Jury recommendations that abusive priest be evaluated and treated outside of the church.

      6. Kathy,
        I agree. I guess what I learned the most was what not to do when you have a talk on abuse. People need to be genuine,open, honest, feel free to talk and ask the hard questions and not be limited in their questions……..we need to ask questions to make sense of what went wrong and how we can fix it.That did not happen at this meeting.Also what we can do to reach out to survivors.I think both these speakers should have been at separate meetings……….because they need to address separate issues.

  29. Sorry to hear of your pain. My net has not work well for the past few days. Do you know of any local newspapers to express your feelings about the meeting, especially the fact that one presenter was cut off? I know there are papers like the NE Times that would print letters to the editor.Who was the moderator?Yeakel would be the tall Obale from OMC Bazzoli the pastor and one that Nines thanked in his dissertation.In a letter released by Reck, then-Provincial Joseph G. Morrissey wrote in 2002 to an alleged victim that he had been ”generally appraised” [sic] in 1996 of an ”incident” involving Killion. Morrissey wrote that Killion reported to ”his counselor and me on a regular basis” and that Killion’s superiors ”are aware of the concerns that have been raised concerning Fr. Killion.”

    “Morrissey, who also attended Brisson in the 1970s, recommended Killion in 2005 for transfer from Father Judge to Bishop Verot High School in Fort Myers, Fla., and certified that Killion was of ”good character and reputation” and ”had nothing in his background that would render him unsuitable to work with minor children,” according to a lawsuit filed June 25 ”
    “John GR Doe said he also told Greenfield, the oblates’ current provincial who at the time was a seminarian who had completed his studies at Brisson. Doe said he met Greenfield at a Bennigan’s in Wilmington shortly after the alleged assault and later, while walking on the grounds at Salesianum, told him about it.

    Greenfield, in an e-mail response, said ”You are asking me to comment on a dinner that is said to have occurred a quarter of a century ago. Nevertheless, if someone told me that he or she was sexually abused, I would certainly remember. Such a conversation never occurred.””

    From the morning call article – guess the Oblates are part of the 10%
    that multiple offend. Yes, I know those who have been named in multiple suits and in the late 70’s I did ask students if something sexual was happening when I heard a concern or nurse if a camper showed signs of abuse. Took a quarter of a century for it to come out and I get no sense that these “human” priests have admiited to the abuse – not on Megan’s list in Downingtown. So they are above the civil law yet we are suppose to feel sorry for them? Tes, a few Oblates are on that list in Maryland.

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