109 thoughts on “Cardinal Bevilacqua Has Died

  1. I pray for God’s mercy for Cardinal Bevilacqua as he now stands before the ultimate judge. Really not much more that I can say.

      1. i think that debbie smith means that the commentors that “feel they need to forgive” are” lying”. that is my take. she is probably discgusted…. a lot of SELF-RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE (some say Paterno need to go to hell-and another says Card. Bev should rot in hell -WOW) on here that never do or say anything wrong, cannot tolerate disagreement and are very immature (actually some are in their very mature years which is good to get their perspective as long as it makes sense-my mom is 92 and she makes a lot of sense-but some don’t..just saying) as you say on here it is what it is-truth

      2. Folks have a constitutionally guaranteed right to their point of view. My ‘take’ on C4C is that folks generally exercise that right.

        I may or may not agree with comments, but I assume they are the genuine feelings of those who comment.

        For commenters who question the veracity of certain positions expressed on this blog, which are not to their liking, there are a huge number of other blogs where these commenters might find the blog consensus more to their liking. I strongly suggest that they find those blogs.

      3. since you are ALWAYS all day long commenting, joan, is what you are saying that only those who you can safely smooze with should feel comfortable here? that is a little blindsided. i have NO PROBLEM expressing my distaste with some of the characters on here that spout nonsense. actually, they need to be called to task. at times. aren’t we after the truth here? as jack said, some people believe stuff they read without thinking.
        well. there are some

      4. Senga, of course you have a perfect right to express your thoughts on C4C, and by all means continue to do so, if you prefer. But please don’t question the honesty/veracity of folks that don’t agree with you, which was my main point.

  2. Please google the 2005 federal govt. study of sexual abuse in the public school system. Hofstra university was the lead researcher. Dr. Carol Shakeshaft, the lead researcher, in a summary of the study said, and I quote: “think the Catholic Church has a problem?” she said. “The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.” This well funded federal study then goes on for pages and pages to document the findings. This does not make the Catholic church any less guilty, however, it does raise the serious question of why this study is not common knowledge….why has the media so sparingly reported on this????

    1. Because the study is fraudulent, as Shakeshaft admitted after she was questioned about it. Of course, you know this, but I’ll educate everyone else.

      Here are some of the flaws:

      1) Shakeshaft did an “extrapolation”, which means she took 225 people (181 from New York), and determined that “the whole US must be like this”. By the same technique, she could have proven that 90% of the US was Yankee fans. If she did the same technique from the Netherlands, she could have proven that 200,000-400,000 children were raped in the Catholic church (extrapolating the 20,000 Netherland Catholic child rapes out of their 16 million people).

      2) Shakeshaft considered sexual harassment and actual child sex to be the same thing for the purpose of her study. In other words, if a teacher told a girl in New York that her boobs were sticking out of her shirt, that was equivalent to a 12 year old boy being raped by a Catholic priest.

      3) Shakeshaft picked a 4 year window in the 90s, knowing that most Catholic victims from that time period would not have come forward yet. She compared that with the Catholic reports only for those 4 years. She should have done a 50 year comparison of both, like the Catholic John Jay study did.

      4) Shakeshaft used completely different techniques to get her data, which can’t be explained here. The Catholic church got their data from actual child sex abuse victims that came forward, and from churches that voluntarily gave the information, and it was done for 100,000 priests in the US.

      The Catholic church has, by far, more child sex abusers than any other institution in history.

      I can’t prove that this was her motivation, but Shakeshaft got a LOT more attention for her study, and her books, after the Catholic League and Archbishop Dolan started telling the world that this was proof that “its just as bad everywhere else”.

      Child sex abuse has never been as bad in another institution as it was in the Catholic church in the last 50 years. In fact, Catholic priests are 100 times more likely to be child sex abusers as you can see from the study at http://www.adrianliston.eu/blog/2010/9/18/a-true-apology-from-the-pope-would-acknowledge-that-catholic.html

    2. That study has been discredited. The goverment agency that supported it has disassociated itself from it and Shakeshaft has apologised for the misleading statistical analysis that was provided

      How often does this have to be repeated.?

      1. The Catholic League and Archbishop Dolan (in his blog) still push it, so the legion of Catholics looking for a dismissive excuse pass it on like the 11th commandment. It will live on in Catholic folklore for years to come.

        As Churchill once said (and I may have heard it on this site), “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on”.

      2. i am also wondering why sister repeats things and also why sister does not answer when she demands answers from others.

    1. This Shakshafft study has been used by abuse apologists for years.”look at how public school teachers abuse.” ?? They using this excuse never point out that Catholic school teachers out number priests 3-4 to one. So where are the 20,000 credible Catholic school teacher abusers? they don’t exist..

  3. The study of sexual abuse in the public school system may or may not have been sparingly reported. As a retired public school teacher, I know that I had responsibility to report any and all signs of abuse of any type–to child protective services. It was my job to report abuse. I always knew that. And, I was confident that in my jurisdiction the protection of children from preadators was a priority–perhaps in the Catholic schools, where I also worked, the chain of command was different. I would have done the same had the need been there. When I worked in a special, private school, I reported a suspiciion of abuse to the principal and openly at a staff meeting; nothing was done until the child manifested some difficulty in my classroom.

    Catholics who wish to see reports of clerical sexual abuse as strictly an attack on the RCC religion are short sighted to my way of thinking. The tragedy of the RCC sexual abuse scandal is, of course, the cover ups and denials as well as the astounding amount of legal advice the RCC is willing to pay top dollar for. It would seem to me that the best way for the RCC to proceed it to admit there is a problem and do their best to end it. But that would be too simple for the gow wearers who run our chruch.

    Catholics in denial often

  4. Does anyone remember JPI? If you don’t like what’s going on you get rid of it. Remember the nun who was going to testify? She got stabbed. ..Priest was indicted. That trial maybe still going on.

    If you can groom a child (when you are a religious of the rcc) and then sexually abuse them..you can do anything!

    I wouldn’t put it past them to have given him somthing in his food to hasten his death. Watch how fast he gets “cremated” and buried , without an autopsy!This is another crime TO BE INVESTIGATED!

    I’m sure i sound harsh but an INVESTIGATION should be made …IMMEDIATELY!! Before the evidence is cremated. Watch what the hierarchy says, when the police wish to take the body to the coroner to see the cause of death. The judge should demand this! He was to be A WITNESS IN THE TRIAL.

    1. I think that because he was to be a witness, an autopsy should be done, but I don’t know the law. I’d really have a problem with the AD if they cremate him.

      1. Dr.Who13, I was just saying the same thing. Awful funny that 2 weeks earlier Judge Sarmina said he could stand trial! I agree with you, an autopy should be done, then again they would find someone who would not be honest. People wake up, this institution will do ANYTHING to protect its interests! I do remember JP1st, died under some very odd circumstances!

    2. That was my first thought when I heard this story… in the midde of the night, on a small blog. They announced it and quickly got his body to the funeral home.
      I think an autopsy is definitely in order. Hoping the DA demands it.

      I’m glad to hear I’m not alone in my thinking.

      1. An autopsy would certainly be in order if only to determine how extensively the Alzheimer’s had progressed.

        Perhaps Cardinal Bevilaequa willed his brain, as many of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (possibly others) have done, to the “NUNS’ STUDY on Alzheimer’s.

        Wouldn’t it be great if he had?

    3. I was thinking of JP1 also the nun was stabbed? I read the story she was a witness to his death he was in the middle of paperwork and finicial exposure of scandal etc. Never know could be stress in fragile condition. God will be his judge and i pray for the conversion of all souls and I believe in purgatory the exposure in this case might have been his last opportunity to repent. That being said priests and religious are suppose to lead us to Christ…………did he do this ????????? or did he lead us to despair????? I think it is obivious…….you know them by their fruits………..

  5. Sorry I did not edit this entry before I sent it.

    Catholics in denial often see those who tell us bad things about our religious practices as anti-catholic; that may be true. Or, our practices may need to be examined. We were told as children to examine our consicience, and that was a good thing.

    That the people are the church is true; that people do wrong is also true. Let us remember that we are not a perfect group and that sin and wrongdoing are not just limited to the RCC. Sadly, it seems that denial and covering up has been a strong element in the RCC to the detriment of the spritual growth of our people, and to the detriment of our standing in the world.

    May God have mercy on Cardinal Belavaqua.

    1. ” a detriment of the spiritual growth of our people”. Who are “our people, Catholics, or Christians? “Detriment to our standing in the World.” If God has mercy on Belavaqua ,why do we try to NOT allow the World and it’s evils to get to us.? Why do anything, other than what we want to do? That’s what he and all the rest do.

      I’ve never in mylifetime, seen anything like the rcc. And I’m going to be 83 years young in Aug. I was a “good” ( so I thought , rc). I did all the rules and reg’s and was in every voulunteer job that was available to a married woman with 4 children and a husband in the Knights, including my own ministry of healing and a co-ordinator for the National Magnificat Ministry for Women. And a daily communicant. We left this evil place in 2001. TBTG!

      I’m sick and tired of the whole lot of them. Can you imagine what Christ Jesus is feeling?

  6. They killed him or he asked to be put down. He did not want to end his life this way(at trial). I want to know who is doing the autopsy. I hope there is going to be one and that it is done independently from the church. In life there is no such thing as coincidences like this, a few days after he is ruled to be able to testify.

    1. Cardinals in particular, owe their loyality to the church even to death.
      One has to consider, although we shouldn’t have to get into their psyche, that he really wanted to be an honest man, and couldn’t.
      An blind elderly clergyman was to appear in my local court for indecent assault/s, was pleading not guilty, and his bishop [now deceased] knew there were issues years ago.
      I tried to persuade him to change his plea and say his bishop knew, and that I would present myself with him in court, using other instances as an example I was personally aware of, but he wouldn’t.
      On the day changed his plea, suffered the consequences and at least spiritually free.
      Not all can do that, better for them if they would/could.
      He must have told, he must have told

      1. Wow, Catholic tolerance shows that the devil has won.

        “Cardinals in particular, owe their loyality to the church even to death.”

        In other words, Cardinals can have “one false idol before God”, as long as its the pope, or church, et cetera. That’s where bishops think God wasn’t smart enough in the first commandment.

        And they think God wasn’t smart enough in the 9th commandment, where He should have been smart enough to say “Don’t lie unless you’re helping a priest, bishop, pope, or the church”. Thankfully, the congregation has become smart enough to follow their bishops (against #1) since they know when to lie (against #9).

        Catholics – good luck on judgement day, and hope God doesn’t have a cheat sheet with the commandments on it.

  7. So much hateful speech on here. This is certainly not a Christian group… is it? I’m terribly confused!

      1. Jack, first please understand that even the Archdiocese has deemed Vicki’s case credible. Vicky was first sexually abused by priests as a teen. Please don’t dismiss those 4 years as if they were nothing. The abuse she suffered as a minor -very traumatic abuse including rape,is life changing- it certainly changed Vicky’s life. Vicky has never claimed that the abusive relationship with one priest in her adult years was a crime -however it was abuse of authority and power. And by the way -aren’t priests supposed to be celibate? Your comment reminds me of those who blame an abusive wife for staying in an abusive situation rather than blaming the abusive spouse for his actions. It is a shame you missed the opportunity to respond to Vicky in a more Christian ,compassionate manner. She is a wonderful, strong woman who has turned her pain into a passion for protecting children. I am proud to call her a friend.

    1. Jack, catholics4change is not a group it is a forum. There are a wide variety of opinions,just like in the real world.

      1. yes Kathy… there is a real world… some people on this blog, or forum as you call it, can say whatever they want and people accept it as Gospel truth. Truth itself must be grounded in reality, otherwise it’s not true. It must also be rational and not based upon opinion or impression. Just because someone says something on an online forum doesn’t make it true. People have made all kinds of outlandish and unfounded claims on here and you, Kathy and Susan, support and encourage this kind of irrational dialogue. It is not only inflammatory, but leads to a vision of the Church which does not exist.

        There are some who have committed sins, and perhaps even crimes, but to paint the whole Church as criminal or supportive of child sexual abuse is not only misguided, it is also very dangerous. If this is truly a “forum” … then my opinion also should be heard! Susan often blocks my messages because they are not in accord with her opinions. We need to fight sin and evil, not the Church. the Church is the instrument of God’s grace on earth. Without the Church no one can get to heaven. You seem to be confusing the sins of people in the Church with the Church Herself! Don’t persecute the Church, but pray and work for reconciliation and a greater holiness in the Church. I pray for you and for all at this time.

      2. Jack, have you had an opportunity to read the two Grand Jury reports that can very easily be found at the top of this page in the link RESOURCES, which detail in a nauseating fashion for the years prior to and including 2005 and then again in 2011, what has occurred in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, relative to the sodomy and rape that very innocent Philly kids have experienced.

        I strongly suggest you read the entire reports.

        You might then have a more informed opinion as to why folks are not very happy with ‘the church.’

        Right now in the Milwaukee diocese, noted in the national news today, 550 abuse claims have been filed.

        And there’s so much more, and if you would like, I would be happy to do a very extensive link on the issue.

      3. please joan-stop with telling everyone about grand jury reports-if people have not read them by now, they are NOT going to. You live in CALIFORNIA and you have no conex with the Archdiocese of Philadelphia or its people other than bloggers-other than stirring up trouble talking incessantly about everything under the sun that is ant–catholic, what is your interest. what exactly is it you do other than blog????? telling people to read the grand jury reports-are you at all familiar with what a grand jury report is? i think you are placing too much importance on it.. PS in one post , you, yes YOU ALONE commented 15 times out of 43. THAT IS DEDICATION to something

      4. Okay if I constantly come to a blog that does not reflect anything I believe,invade a space that has become a safety net for victims and their families and then start counting the number of comments per person – Well…don’t even know what to say at this point .

      5. Actually Senga, I don’t think it is possible to place too much importance on those Grand Jury reports and I deeply hope that all readers of this blog, if they have not already read them will do so soon.

        For what it’s worth, I do lots of other things, beside blog, although I do care about these issues a lot. Have pity on someone who can ‘multi task ‘

      6. Jack S. I heard “dangerous” somewhere else lately……..ahhhhhh yes it was Archbishop Chaput that wrote in his letter I believe that what Obama is doing is “dangerous” with healthcare and religious rights. Just felt like deja vu.
        “The administration’s only concession was to give our institutions a one-year delay to comply,” he said in a Feb. 2 letter. “This is not merely inadequate. It is dangerous. And it betrays the good faith of many Catholics who – until now – have supported the current administration with an honest will.”

        Jack S. how do you mean dangerous?

    2. Jack, Let us look at forgiveness, for a moment. I am a survivor of clergy abuse from 3 catholic priests. Not once has one of the 3 priests stood before me and said he was sorry, instead they blamed me I was 14 at the time the abuse started and continued for 25 years. Lets remember that what they did to me was a CRIME. Now, when you commit a crime you go to jail. That is the consequence of your action. You need to admit responsibility and do what it takes and hope for forgiveness, from the person you have harmed. God doesn’t absolve you from your sin until you face the person you have offended and with a firm and sincere apology ask for forgiveness. Ten hail mary’s and 10 our fathers doesn’t cut it! Please in your critcism see with your heart and mind the persons who were raped and sodomized over and over in the name of God in whom these priests kept reminding us. I hope I have been able to put a little perspective on what truly is the offender who raped children and the child who is being asked to forgive, by some of you and the church!

      1. Vicky,

        Realize that senga, jack s, debbie smith, etc are all followers of the Catholic League, using their lines, and they have the philosophy that everyone should just shut up and make this go away. They aren’t followers of Christ. They are followers of Catholic bishops and priests, and will forgive any criminals in a priest outfit.

      2. Vicky… you were only a minor for four of those 25 years… so it was only a crime for four years… what about the 21 years that followed? they forced you into having sexual relations or whatever until you were 39 years old?

      3. Posted this in the wrong spot,so here it is again.

        Jack, first please understand that even the Archdiocese has deemed Vicki’s case credible. Vicky was first sexually abused by priests as a teen. Please don’t dismiss those 4 years as if they were nothing. The abuse she suffered as a minor -very traumatic abuse including rape,is life changing- it certainly changed Vicky’s life. Vicky has never claimed that the abusive relationship with one priest in her adult years was a crime -however it was abuse of authority and power. And by the way -aren’t priests supposed to be celibate? Your comment reminds me of those who blame an abusive wife for staying in an abusive situation rather than blaming the abusive spouse for his actions. It is a shame you missed the opportunity to respond to Vicky in a more Christian ,compassionate manner. She is a wonderful, strong woman who has turned her pain into a passion for protecting children. I am proud to call her a friend.

      4. Vicky was also asked by the Archdiocese to speak at the ‘Witness to Sorrow” seminar that was held after the 2005 Grand Jury report. She stood before 300 priests and just a few feet away on the stage from Cardinal Rigali and the bishops. I watched the videotape of Vicky’s speech and realized she has more courage than I will have on my bravest day. Vicky also recently spoke at at a local parish and I was in the audience. Afterwards Vicky was warmly received by the parishioners who attended the event.

      5. Vicky,
        You should have NO doubt that I support you 100% because I understand the dynamics of sexual abuse, the lines that are crossed, not only physically, but in every other way as well. We also understand that many who have never been abused find it “inconceivable” that abuse would continue into the adult years. Not everyone “gets” that the moment an abuser violates the child, IN ANY WAY, it changes the child forever…how they view the world, the shame, the feelings of “participation,” the “hold” the perpetrator has on the victim…the list goes on.

        Jack S. I think it’s a valid question you are asking. This forum can help, not only Jack, but other lurkers (many catholic) understand the dynamics of sexual abuse. I don’t think it’s up to Vicky to “stand and deliver” to anyone about the abuse she’s suffered. Perhaps the way it was asked leaves something to be desired. Your question came across as judgemental instead of a simple question of “how does abuse happen into the adult years?” Is your question one of curiosity or judgement? One implies you are interested in learning more and the other implies you’ve already made up your mind and stand in judgement. Clarify and then I think you may get some educational avenues to help you learn more about the effects of sexual abuse.

      6. Jack S,

        Please look on your driver’s license. It has the last name that I asked for. You know mine, and who I am. I’m not afraid to say who I am and what I said is what I believe.

        The bible said that you will be asked if you are a Christian and you can acknowledge it or deny it. God will remember. I love God.

        Matthew, Mark Luke and John didn’t know much about blogging, so they left the “blogging commenting” part out of the bible, but this is what they were talking about.

        Give your real name. Speak up or shut up. Same for your friends or aliases senga, debbie smith, etc, who seem to have disappeared.

      7. Jack S.
        I am in the healthcare field and I am biting my tongue right now at your comment to Vicky. Please educate yourself on sexual abuse. Your comment seems to display a huge amount of ignorance on child sexual abuse. If you understood sexual abuse of children you would understand its lasting impact on the survivor’s life , their coping mechanisms, destructive patterns, addictions etc. I pray God opens your mind and heart Jack.

      8. Dear Vicki,

        With all deference, I find it very hard to believe that you were abused by 3 Catholic priests in your lifetime. This doesn’t seem to pass the ‘red face’ test.

        1. Joe, several, including Vicki herself, will be sure to respond to this. I want to say that I was incredulous at first. It is hard to believe because it is so hard to understand. As I continue to become educated on the issue, I realize it happens. There can be a repetitive victim and perpetrator pathology. Her case is accepted by the archdiocese and she has bee invited to speak at parishes on behalf of victims. There are frauds but even the US Bishops Conference puts it at lower than 2 percent. Vicki works very hard to promote peaceful understanding.

      9. Joe B ,I am assuming you read the related comments that explained Vicky’s case was deemed credible by the Archdiocese. Vicky was asked to be a featured speaker at the Archdiocese Witness to Sorrow. Do you now think the Archdiocese is not to be trusted Joe? Call Mary Achilles at the AD.Call victims assistance -tell them you don’t believe Vicky -tell the review board that found the case credible.
        You cause nothing but pain here Joe-does that make you feel good? What gospel does that come from?

      10. JoeB is also from the Catholic League, who has now softened their replies since they’ve been called out.

        Susan, not sure where your “2%” number is documented, but the number of substantiated accused child sex abusers in the John Jay report was 4%, and that was a statistical distortion. The real number is 8-9%, as documented here, where he shows that Catholic priests are 100 times more likely to be a child sex offender http://www.adrianliston.eu/blog/2010/9/18/a-true-apology-from-the-pope-would-acknowledge-that-catholic.html

      11. Patrick, math was never my strong suit and as I read yours an Susan’s posts, and going back to your link, I did a copy and paste number as follows:
        So if we were to assume that Catholic Priests are no better than the average person (a claim which, by the way, negates the entire premise of the profession), we would expect to find around 0.08% would be child rapists…

        The headline figure was that 4% of Catholic Priests had allegations of sexual abuse reported against them. However, the figure is actually much worse than the headline, since it is artifically decreased by Priests entering or leaving the order around the cut-off dates (eg, a Priest ordained in 2001 counts in the total number of Priests, but they only have a fraction of their career to count in the total number of sex offenses). If you take Priests who served their full career during the reporting period, ie those ordained in 1970 so that the entire 30 years of normal service is included within the reporting period, 10% of Catholic priests had allegations of child sexual abuse reported against them.

        Of course an allegation does not mean that a crime was actually committed. The Church reported only a tiny fraction of allegations to police – even priests with ten or more allegations were transferred to a new ministry 96% of the time, and only reported to police 4% of the time. So once again, we have to rely on the Church’s own investigation. As reported by official Church documents, 82% of cases were noted at the time of the report to be “credible”. 72% of cases were investigated, and of those 80% were found (by the Church) to be “substantiated” and only 1.5% of cases were found to be “false”. When these percentages are layered upon the 10% accusation rate, the Church’s own official reports (which can be considered a bare minimum) demonstrate that 8.2-9.9% of Catholic Priests were child sex offenders.”

        It would seem that you are both right….1.5% false claims, AND 8 to 9 % substantiated abuse claims….Did I get this right?

      12. Susan, I read the footnotes on Patrick’s link and think around 7 to 7and a half percent might be a bit safer and I would have a professional math person go over the article before I put it in your link segment….

        I am a nervous Nellie about stats! Joan

      13. Joe B.
        In working in a hospital I have come across many adult victims of child sexual abuse that have been abused by more than one adult in their lifetime and gone on to be abused in the future in adult relationships in many different ways.From my experience it is sadly the norm in many cases. This is what we are trying to get across to people that HAVE NOT BEEN ABUSED that child sexual abuse affects people for a lifetime. Vicky is extremely courageous for telling us her story………….

  8. some of it has been removed, probably due to the content of the texts about more coverup about the body of the Cardinal, reason for death, cremation, general abusive lanquage…someone needed to get control of it…all under “Catholics4change”. go figure

  9. Vicky, I attended the First Friday vigil today and met some fantastic people. I always leave the vigil so thankful that I went. I met a woman whose brother is a victim and another woman who is the mother of a victim. Like you,they are so welcoming and thankful for people standing with them. Also met some great Catholic people who are fortunate enough to not be personally affected as victims or family members,but join with those who have suffered. And I also met Fr Wintermyer who has commented on C4C several times -a very nice man.

  10. Jack I would ask you to refrain from making comments like that in regards to what an abuse victim has gone through.

    1. I’m only speaking for myself, Dave…

      I welcome Jack’s comment, whether it is meant judgmentally or inquiringly makes little difference to me. I’d rather he say it than silently harbor it. If Jack never says it, no one will ever challenge it. In saying it, he positions himself to be enlightened.

      Jack, when my brother was 10 and 11, he was sexually abused. The years that followed were horrendously difficult for him and my family. Nothing we did for him (and into him we invested everything conceivable) changed the pattern of failures he endured year after year, decade after decade. When he was 36, he took his own life.

      My brother did not survive sexual abuse. He never came to overcome the trauma of it. Actually, his story is not an unusual one. It can take years, decades, lifetimes for victims to finally cope with the trauma of their abuse. Then, there are the inordinate number of sexual abuse victims who take their own lives.

      Vicky is one story. My brother is another story. There are so many complex stories.

      1. hadit,

        I agree with you. I believe that it is always better if one has some insight into what’s going on in the enemies’ camp. I consider Jack and those like him to be enemies of our cause. Nonetheless, they provide us with intelligence albeit through disinformation.

        “Disinformation (a direct translation of Russian дезинформация dezinformatsiya) is intentionally false or inaccurate information that is spread deliberately. For this reason, it is synonymous with and sometimes called black propaganda. It is an act of deception and false statements to convince someone of untruth.” (Wikipedia)

      2. drwho13,

        In seminary, did you study Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave”?

        The “prisoners” in Plato’s cave have been chained in their places since childhood. All they have ever seen are the shadows on the cave wall. They have organized and understood their world according to them. The shadows give their lives substance and meaning. But the shadows are illusions. They are not the real things.

        When a “liberator” unchains one of the prisoners, he reacts violently… distressed and furious. He does not want his comfortable and familiar shadow-world disturbed. He prefers illusions over having to experience the cognitive crisis that enlightenment necessarily entails. Still, the “liberator” drags the uncooperative “prisoner” out of the cave and into the sunlight. There, the “prisoner” sees what is real and true.

        The light of truth compels the “prisoner” to feel pity for the darkened state of his fellow prisoners. So, he returns to the cave, intending to free them of their chains and illusions. The prisoners, however, like their darkened state; they like their misconceptions; they do not want the stability of their “secure” lives threatened.

        In the cave, the prisoners turn on their enlightened brother, lashing out at him and hurting him for his “false” report of The Truth.

        Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave” is about the extent to which people will go to protect the shadowy illusions they believe and live by. In order to maintain their comfort-zones, and in order to avoid cognitive crises, people will wrap themselves in delusions which, in reality, do nothing but act as barriers to enlightenment.

      3. haditcatholic,

        Yes I have read the story of cave. I suspect that it is on the “required” list at most seminaries. For those who are interested, it can be found in the “The Republic,” by Plato. It is well worth reading, but haditCatholic gave you the crux of it in her fine summary.

        Talk “…about the extent to which people will go to protect the shadowy illusions they believe and live by. In order to maintain their comfort-zones, and in order to avoid cognitive crises, people will wrap themselves in delusions which, in reality, do nothing but act as barriers to enlightenment.”

        Oh this is so true! I have members of my own family who are not willing to read the legal documents I used to defeat a Catholic religious order, and their unsuccessful efforts to protect a pedophile priest from the law.

        The desire to avoid a cognitive crisis is a very powerful barrier to enlightenment; they don’t want the truth, too painful.

      4. Thank you, Hadit, for sharing that. I agree with hearing different views as well, so long as they do not gratuitously hurt victims. While the truth will make us free, malicious untruths can needlessly hurt. Obviously, sorting this out is the challenge. We are blessed here with Susan and Kathy’s fundamental fairness and integrity.

    2. Dave,

      Please realize that the Catholic League and every priest who is a pedophile or who defend his pedophile pals is probably commenting somewhere on the Internet, and on this blog. As much as people love this blog, Susan & Kathy let them speak, whereas Catholic blogs always shut up any dissenters.

      Know this – there are people who are in your corner, and are sick about what happened to you, and who have huge respect for the fact that you had the strength to survive.

      And we don’t have fake names like Jack S, and Debbie Smith and senga (who may all be the same person).

      You are right, and you have been wronged, and we are here to fight the fight with you, and the anonymous cowards who hide in the darkness will be beaten on earth before they are beaten for eternity.

  11. JackS you really are shameful for saying such a thing.
    Those of the medical profession {and others}, have unreservedley recognised and acknowledged that the affects of abuse can last forever, in particular for a Catholic abused by clergy.
    The betrayal is lodged into the psyche/spirit and no matter how much love, support and money given, it takes only a little thing to set one off.
    Have charity; if things don’t drastically change within the church, who knows maybe somewhere down the track it could effect you and yours.
    I hope not.

  12. Senga… keep up your efforts.. ,people on this blog are biased and uninformed and are generally working out their own personal anger because they have agendas and are just plain old angry with the Church. Abuse needs to be handled properly and victims need support… of course! Christian charity demands this… but blogs like this only provide a forum for people to say whatever they want and innocent people read such things, including headlines and biased articles in the Philadelphia Inquirer. There does not seem to be a place for rational discussion or for a spirit of true christian charity. Again…. this blog is the work of the enemy!

    1. Jack, This forum is for you and Senga, too. It is for all Catholics. If abuse was being handled properly, I wouldn’t have begun this blog. You are and have always been invited to add to the rational discussion and the spirit of Christian charity.

  13. Thank you Susan…. It’s good to have a place for people to express their views. But sometimes things are said which are blatantly untrue… for example, generalizations about “all the clergy being predators” or at least being “unconcerned about this issue” or that “the church is more concerned about her money than about her people”. Some many wrong and untrue things are proposed on here by people like Sister Maureen, who have agendas apart from the issue of ‘sexual abuse of minors’. You neither defend nor seek to clarify points that are clearly false. Some people on here, in my opinion, are trying to present a disfigured view of the Church. Just because something is written online doesn’t mean it’s true! How many people on here are angry fallen away Catholics? how many aren’t even catholic? There are axes being ground on here and true reform is being ignored for the sake of the agendas of old worn out nuns who are probably outside of the communion of the Church theologically and personally. If you, Susan and Kathy, truly love the Church, you would correct people who have misguided and informed opinions and sad worn out agendas. But you don’t! Under the guise of openness and “having a forum” you seek change on levels that are not even related to sexual abuse. Anyway, little will change on this blog, because whenever someone has an opinion that differs from your’s or sister maureen’s or some random anti-catholic person’s, you all gang up on that person and attack him or her. When people agree with you, you all praise that post and give it a “thumb’s up”… whenever people disagree with your agenda and opinion you all attack that person and give them a “thumb’s down” hence… I’ll be expecting a lot of hateful, anti Christian replies and lots of thumb’s down… sorry, but after all, this is apparently a “forum for rational discussion and the spirit of Christian Charity” .. yeah I believe that one Susan… tell me another lie..

    1. I care if your question is asked to a victim in judgement or curiosity…because, in no way, do we ever want to perpetuate a climate that puts a victim in a situation where they have to stand and deliver to anyone, ever.

      Vicky doesn’t owe you a response, but if you truly want to know how abuse affects people into adulthood, then just ask the question. Why all this talk about church hating, blog intentions, etc., if your goal is to understand?

      I don’t give you grief for asking the question and I’d be happy to answer any question you have. Jack, I think you represent so many in the church who have similar thoughts. Ask away. I’ll do my best to answer based on the research I’ve done, my professional background, but mostly, the experiences I’ve witnessed specific to this issue.

    2. Jack stated, “How many people on here are angry fallen away Catholics?”

      If one has taken the time to inform themselves regarding the criminal actions of so many clerics, and and those who have covered for them, how can one NOT be angry?

    3. Jack I hope you aren’t referring to Sr Maureen as an old worn out nun. The thing I find ironic is how you and Senga personally attack commentors -while also speaking of Christian charity.

      As for expecting Susan and I to correct misguided opinions -well people are entitled to their opinions ..just as you are. There are a wide variety of people who share their opinions without personally attacking others It is funny because this just seems like the pot calling the kettle black. You seem to be upset that people are angry and post their opinions-which is exactly what you are doing also -just with a different point of view. So why would you expect from others ,anything different than you are doing yourself ,is beyond confusing.

      1. Kathy… how could I expect you to safeguard the truth on your own blog? If you can’t do that than you shouldn’t have a blog. secondly, you miss my point, which is this. You agree with statements (true or false) that are in accord with your opinions about the Church. You attack and correct statements that you don’t agree with. My point is simply that you are biased and unwilling to have a rational and educated debate.

        As for attacking commentators… I’m only giving you some of your own medicine.

      2. Jack S this is still America and have we the freedom of speech.

        You seem to have a handle on the truth. Let your pearls of wisdom fall on us. I am ignorant and ready to be enlightened.

        “Bring it (the truth) on!”

    4. Worn out agenda’s Jack?
      Read what’s going on, if not here look elsewhere. Australia abuse support group Brokenrites for instance.
      To add to the list,we’ve had under aged pregnancies, wheel chair rapes where a child has been conceived dozens of sexual abuse suicide related deaths, pedophile rings, an establishment within an Archdiocese under the guise of a Catholic Private Hospital, for women giving birth to babies in “situations created by clergy”, with no birth records, still utilized into the 1980’s. With the closing down of the facility, disorientated women coerced into relinquish their newborns to preserve the priesthood.
      Old agenda’s indeed, with long life consequences.
      It’s a wise child who knows who their father is, even for a Catholic.

    5. Jack S,

      Please show me that you aren’t a liar. Please show me where you have found the quoted string “all the clergy being predators” anywhere on this blog. I just did a Google search and didn’t find it. Please show a specific example of something close, with a specific URL

      Otherwise, you’re just lying for the Catholic church, and we can get that from any other Catholic that ignores the 9th commandment.

      1. Patrick,

        I don’t think that there is any question about the lack of veracity on Jack’s part. That’s why I like to see him post. The more he posts the more he discredits himself.

      2. drwho13,

        I understand that, but I wouldn’t put up with him insulting my friends along the way, like he did with Sister MPT. I would have thrown him out the door to keep my living room clean.

    6. Jack S.
      So what was your agenda for coming on this site? I would really like to hear it. I agree with all the churches teachings. My agenda is to stop child sexual abuse.

  14. Jack, what do you mean by the truth. Aside from this blog,when I have an opinion about something in life,I consider it to be my thoughts on a subject. When someone has a different opinion,it is their thoughts. If someone were to say to me something such as ‘Our senator is doing a terrible job and should not be re-elected” That is their opinion – I don’t put a true or false equation on an opinion.
    You stated that victims deserve support. What does that look like to you? How does that get accomplished? I am wondering this because people have responded to your question about Vicky,sharing their own insights and you have not responded to them. So what does supporting a victim mean? I ask this question honestly,without sarcasm. I am just interested in your thoughts.

  15. It is amazing the personal attacks that these two are making at people. I mean going on about the truth and what not, I am not sure what you mean by the truth ? Do you have some fact based document or anything really to support your posts on here or are you just spitting out hate speech. I mean it is almost comical at this point because the posts these two are making are off the wall and way out of touch with reality, I believe that jack is missing the other half of his name. I was at first deeply offended but now I greatly appreciate the good laugh you have given me. Too much importance on 3 grand jury reports over a decades time ROFL!!! You two are too much!!

    1. Dave,

      Stay tough.

      The people that you are talking about are all in the Catholic League, and they are satan’s little minions. They don’t have real names, and the might be faithful to the Catholic church, so they aren’t real Christians. They are protecting money, and trying to hide other criminals.

      True Christians are on your side. Good people are on your side. Please stay tough, and satan’s little loudmouths will shut up soon enough.

  16. Dave, it took me ten minutes. I googled ‘Roman Catholic dioceses with grand jury molestation issues’

    Starting with Boston,Westchester Co, Springfield mass, Kansas City, Orlando, Milwaukee, Trenton, Phoenix, Long island, and state references to Kentucky, New Hampshire et al, there appear to be quite a few Grand Jury’s besides Philadelphia that have examined these issues.

    And I only checked a portion of the citations. You would be most welcome to pursue this matter if you wish.

    1. I was criticising jack, I am well aware of what has gone on. I am a victim myself. I, however, have given up but people such as Jack still get under my skin.

      1. Dave, truth in blogging, I had actually meant to send that post relative to other grand jury’s to Jack and had inadvertently put your name on it.

        I emailed Kathy, and told her to feel very free to eliminate it….but as you had been calling for factual accuracy, it could play both ways.

        I am sure you are up to speed on stuff, my apologies. Joan

      2. Dave -Joan did email to say she had put your name on the comment by mistake. I was away from the computer when her comment went through and didn’t have a chance to clear that up. Kathy

  17. Susan & Kathy,

    This blog is your living room, and you don’t have to allow everyone to say whatever they want in your living room. Senga, Jack S, Debbie Smith (who has probably just become Jack S) and some of the others either work for the Catholic League or follow the Catholic League.

    They come in, use the same words they hear from the Catholic League, like saying they used to say good things about this blog, but now they won’t, and then they leave.

    Jack S will defiantly come in and say this site uses ‘generalizations about “all the clergy being predators”’, but there isn’t one example of that on this site. However, the Catholic League has their sheep prepared to think everyone says that, and tells them to fight that fight for God. Their comments just distract.

    Its your living room. You don’t owe it to anyone to allow them to comment. Just delete their nonsense.

    By the way, try to comment on the Catholic League site, or try to put an anti clergy abuse comment on Archbishop Dolan’s blog.

    1. Patrick, I have left some very diplomatic,informative statements -not at all the least bit inflammatory -on some Catholic sites-and my comments were pulled within minutes.It is like the issue is not even allowed to be talked about. So having experienced that I understand where you are coming from.

      1. So why do you allow it in your living room?

        I love a lot of what you do, but if they were in my living room, I would throw them out on the street. Catholic blogs would throw you out in a second (for telling the TRUTH).

        The Catholic Leaguers (who may all be just the one guy) are insulting, cowardly, and most of all – anonymous. By the way – just like Satan Would Do.

        You’ve deleted my comments before because they were too “harsh”. You’re entitled to that. It’s your living room.

        But if someone didn’t allow my opinion in their living room, and didn’t use their real name in my living room but still wanted to spew their non-factual rhetoric to my friends that had been abused, I’d throw them out or take a beating for trying to thrown them out.

        1. Allowing dissent allows us to clarify certain points that are commonly brought up in conversation off this blog. It also makes our arguments more strong. Unlike the Catholic blogs you mention, we are confident in our position. We aim to better than those blogs. We allow real discourse. I’m not afraid of the opposition. They are.

      2. Susan,

        You are absolutely correct.

        I believe it’s why I have no problem with dissenting opinions, ideas, or perspectives.

        I welcome opposition because they have so much to learn. I’ve seen their side…I’ve been in their world…I was loyal to an institution just like they are.

        What they don’t have is what we’ve experienced and truths they just can’t believe yet. Denial is a powerful thing.

      3. Allowing dissent and encouraging dialogue, hopefully both respectful and factually based, is admirable.

        What is also hugely important is what many of us have learned on C4C from the victims and survivors of abuse.

        Years ago I had Jesuit Volunteers who worked for me. They had a brochure with a gateway on the cover and a note underneath it that said something to the effect that one should be careful entering this program, because it ‘was life changing and you would never be the same, thereafter.’

        I have thought about that brochure, a lot lately, relative to C4C.

      4. Chiming in from my side of the living room,I never mind when guests in my house have spirited discussions,debates,differing views. I do mind when people attack each other personally for their views. So I do think people should get the ‘tap on the shoulder” when remarks are nothing more than an attack,or a way to just upset or offend people. But I have never shied away into entering into a conversation with any one regardless of their views on any subject.

    2. Patrick said, “By the way, try to comment on the Catholic League site, or try to put an anti clergy abuse comment on Archbishop Dolan’s blog.”

      My comment for a Catholic League article wasn’t opinion or catholic-bashing. My comment was personal experiences as it related to the article. They wouldn’t publish it. It’s their living room as well…and they chose to keep a family member of a victim out of it. Their choice. It speaks volumes.

      As far as this site. I welcome the questions, whether I agree with them or not. They offer insight into how pew catholics think. I think it also provides an opportunity for us to answer the questions in an intelligent manner. We have the truth. Bring the comments. Bring the questions. I’ll be happy to share my experiences.

      Until I see something I can discuss with Jack S. and others…I’ll continue to see them as distractions from the mission of this blog and the focus of the blog posts.

  18. As I listen to Kathy, SW, Patrick et al, I am struck by how very fortunate we are to have “this living room!”

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