Click here to read: “Priest, Teacher Get Prison in Sex Abuse Case,” by Joseph Slobodzian, The Philadelphia Inquirer, June 12, 2013
Excerpt: Common Pleas Court Judge Ellen Ceisler exceeded sentencing guidelines in handing out punishment to the Rev. Charles Engelhardt, 66 and Bernard Shero, 50, saying their crimes called for long terms. She sentenced Engelhardt to six to 12 years in prison and Shero to eight to 16.
I am overjoyed, especially for Billy. Justice for Billy! Thank you Billy from every survivor out there.
Two more down, and the judge came down hard upon them. Thank you Judge Ellen.
Engelhardt frowned, expected to do his time working in nursing home for old priests, such arrogance!
I too am overjoyed at the sentence!!! On another note, does anyone here know if King Chaput ever came to a decision on the remaining 21 suspended Philadelphia priests?
God bless Judge Ceisler. Finally, justice for the victim. And punishment for the criminals that fits the crimes!
Yes Thankyou Billy that took a lot of courage and I am so glad that this judge “got it” and that people are starting to understand sexual abuse affects people for a lifetime……….
It was very interesting being there today for the sentencing
I believe the victims/survivors. To be believed is the key, and I pray that that window will close and a new door filled with God’s healing light will gently open to a “new life” for Billy and all who have been affected by the most horrible crimes against innocent children……Peace.
Denise
Believe them based on what evidence? WHY do you believe them? There has to be a reason, not just a feeling!
Did you attend the whole trial?
How about looking at the actual evidence in this case, of which there is none? These men were convicted solely on the word of a known drug abuser whose story changed drastically over time (check out themediareport website), and who was believed just because he accused priests and a Catholic school lay teacher. Everyone rushes to judgement, happy when they should be horrified.
“Everyone rushes to judgement…, “…happy when they should be horrified.” (James C.)
These criminals have been convicted by a court. “The Media Report,” you’re joking, right? Are you a fan of Rush Limbaugh as well?
Sorry James; you lose!
James C.,
Can prisoners blog from prison?
Convicted by what evidence? There’s so much reasonable doubt the case never should have gone to trial. They were found guilty of being a priest and a Catholic school teacher.
Sorry, know at least one personally and the others from family members – these guys were far from innocent. Sir Charles’ relative was limited in his testimony. There is a reason Bishopaccountability can’t give all the info on all the priests – just too many abusive priests that their database is overwhelmed. Get over the 60’s kick when Catholics had a real struggle with prejudice – the problem now is your church has been exposed and damage control is not working. http://www.oblates.org/healing/healing_letter_oct_2012.htm
Sir Charles and the Oblates took years to admit this. Healing needs to be continued for the victims – your website instead attacks them.
I noticed that none list the camp as an assignment Why? Drelich + McDevitt were there. Oblates – complete assignments?
Jury treated the case as a 12 year violated sexually by members of the RCC church. Thank you Billy, heard of so many stories of people in D&A treatment that are victims of sexual abuse and incest and their struggles. You are in our prayers.
And what do you know of the relative? Sounds to me like a lot of hearsay here with your comments.
Gave yourself away – read the sentencing blog not my comment – reference to the trial.. Maybe do some research and find out about him – the relative (credentials). What did the relative say at the trial? Why was he limited? Because of the limitations – SOL which the church supports – won’t allow the truth to come out like in Delaware where a window was opened,
http://www.bigtrial.net/2013/06/judge-sentences-defendants-families.html#zROhFgrQV75IbEdu.99
Have myself away on what. Relative was limited because he was only a character witness for the prosecution so his testimony is limited from the start. Also know that he came forward at the 11th hour when the DAs office was knocking on neighborhood doors to even get a case. Here’s another thing you should know, the relative was in his late thirties at the time and was a known alcoholic and drug addict. Why wait 15-20 years to try and say something was said one time when he probably can’t remember what he did in his thirties
most underreported crime, a priest and having a problem(D&A). You are acting as a defense attorney while I am looking at the victim.( you are attacking the victims) Many believe there was enough doubt to acquit, I am not arguing that – just don’t think he is innocent – more to the story (abuse issue), not speaking of the case. We confess sins of omission.
You are arguing legal, I am not. You understand that? I know I don’t understand the case, sure you know more. Let us see how this issue is affecting the church. Did you read my post or jump on the relative part?
Next post responded to this “I think Ralph Cipriano got it right on this one ..may be worthwhile to review his blog.”
“known drug abuser” I have not met many sexual abuse survivors without addictions, eating disorders, attempts at suicide, depression when their children are born and or reach the age they were when their abuse started or ended. That is not to say all survivors suffer in this way but many. “drug abuser” gives him more credit in my eyes that he was abused some how as a child. When I did my clinical rounds it was rare to meet a person suffering from addictions or an eating disorder that had not been abused as a child. I am not the judge or jury but I do know that my husbands offender after admitting to abusing 3 boys was in jail and on house arrest 18months total and I ran into him having coffee at starbucks in the meantime my husband and I have been and conitinue to go thru hell………so yes I will be happy that when a judge and jury find a predator guilty she gives him time that fits the crime.
You are correct about being ‘horrified’ as I am ‘horrified’ that the catholic church along with their lobbying firms, attorney’s and politicians have gotten away with enabling and protecting perps for as long as they have, oh yes and the pew catholics that fail to demand ‘transparency and accountability !
So the answer to the wrong the Catholic Church has done is to wrong those with reasonable doubt as to their guilt? Should all priests be arrested?
James you make a good point. Only the guilty ones and the ones that knew and did nothing should go to jail but unless you were in the court room every day you don’t have all the facts either.
Burn it down! Burn down the Catholic Church. That’s a good start.
Rich,
Everytime I talk to you and our survivors I realize how sadistic, evil and from the devil these “imposter” representatives of God were. I myself have met the devil and he spoke thru a person……I have encountered Christ also and many times I pray that God give me the grace to discern the difference because satan is a master liar and manipulator……putting my husbands offender in jail was a spiritual battle as much as a physical battle…….he used the Bible in a twisted way to justifiy his actions. At times I thought I was losing my mind but I hung on to Jesus and he made a lot of things fall into place. I don’t understand why God does what he does or allows things to happen. I do know that he exists and there is a heaven and that many times I get in Gods way of having good things happen. That many times people are to blame for the hurt and suffering in this world. But I know without a double he exists.
doubt:)
Whoever is giving the thumbs down to this site’s child protectors, I want to thank you. That gives us satisfaction. We have shaken you! You creeps are taking a dive, and I’m rejoicing that we have you rattled you.
Guilty prelates, sleep well now; your time is at hand. Yes, you’re next as the legal system finally crushes you. You have no credibility in the eyes of the People of God. A clear conscience is the best pillow, and I you don’t have it. It’s time for guilty bishops to start sweating. The People of God, and the civil legal system are coming for you. Sleep as well as you can.
The problem on this site is that there is little room for any dissension …I am the last one to shield or condone any child predators and am disgusted at the abuse that has occurred. I do however have some real concerns about this case..there are too many unanswered questions and the evidence is not concrete. If real reform is to occur, the villification of anyone who has these legitimate concerns should stop. I think Ralph Cipriano got it right on this one ..may be worthwhile to review his blog.
I hope that people don’t feel that way when they come to the site. I don’t know that I could have convicted the defendants based on the evidence..not guilty does not mean innocent but that there was not enough proof of guilt. My opinion is that something traumatic did happen to Billy at St jerome’s but I do not think I could have convicted Engelhardt.
I think the real problem is there seems to be two camps in this crisis. Those that would believe any priest is a pedophile and those who think any victim is a liar..neither view true and both damaging in their own way.
I’ve been the bane of my diocese and the USCCB fighting to stop cover ups of sexually abusive priests – numerous blog posts, letters to the editor, newstips, emails to newspapers/TV news/diocesan and USCCB officials, etc. exposing cases swept under the carpet – but those cases have reasonably strong evidence. I don’t see that in this case. I am one of my bishop’s biggest headaches.
James & Maureen
“But the low light of the day came when prosecutor Manos began testifying about a decades-old unproven allegation against Father Engelhardt that never made it before the jury, and was not in evidence in the case. That didn’t deter prosecutor Manos from using the sentencing hearing to charge Father Engelhardt with a new crime. The prosecutor shouted out what she claimed the priest had allegedly said decades ago to a male relative, namely, “I want to f*** you up the a**!””
Read more at http://www.bigtrial.net/2013/06/judge-sentences-defendants-families.html#zROhFgrQV75IbEdu.99
“The judge said the jury took their job “extremely seriously” and “they believed the victim.” There were discrepancies in the victim’s stories, the judge agreed, but “that alone does not require reasonable doubt.” Especially, she said, because the victim’s initial account to the archdiocese social worker came when Billy Doe was “ambushed and under the influence of heroin.””
Read more at http://www.bigtrial.net/2013/06/judge-sentences-defendants-families.html#zROhFgrQV75IbEdu.99
The jury was probably more informed then your average jury and could see through the defense and RCC.
I have family members dining on shoe leather and travelling across the state to protect child abuse victims – I have a different perspective = Probably why no judge has let me sit on a jury or face a defendant. threaten a few lawyers – judge would put me on the jury, but they thought otherwise. I been through some very nasty stuff.
So blog away and hope you continue to post, but many here have different experiences and all of us get thumbs down.
Already know you have limited knowledge of this case…..
Bam Gallagher
Fair statement. Of course the jury found them guilty.
“Sorry, know at least one personally and the others from family members – these guys were far from innocent” Jury determines guilt not innocence.
Been prejudiced against the Oblates, including those I trusted in this scandal after finding how many have abused kids. I know/knew a few of them and know what they discussed about boys At Judge my buddies would talk about the same priests who were later charge and given probation – never attended that school. Even the principal of the school I taught in Delaware as an Oblate admitted it(abusing a child over I believe 900 times – twice a week from 1976- 1985) as others have admitted their guilt.
Innocence is only for those who are victims in my opinion.
Maureen,
You stated that the “The problem on this site is that there is little room for any dissension…” I have not found that to be that case, but you must keep in mind that this site (I risk speaking for Kathy & Susan), as well as myself unabashedly side with the victims. As I have said in the past, if someone gives me a thumbs down please support your rational. All reasonable positions (Pro&Con) are welcomed by me; that makes for interesting reading and learning.
As for the verdict and the sentencing, the jury and the judge had the facts and made their decisions. I know nothing about these convicted men, other that what I have read. I can’t begin to say what these men did or did not do apart from what I have read. However, when a jury finds pedophiles guilty, and the judge hands down a hard sentence, I see that as a win for society. Yes, I hope they are in prison justly; but as one not possessing the facts, I have nothing to go on except the decisions of the judge and jury. That being said, I am biased; and all else being equal, I always take the side of the prosecution in pedophile cases.
I have asked Bill Donohue, catholicleague.org and Dave Pierre, themediareport.com for a short list of priests that they believe are truly guilty. I never got a response. These men are biased in the other direction. I place them squarly in the ememy camp, but I would welcome a response. Donohue has no room for dissension, Pierre allows some, and I don’t know anything about the fairness of Cipriano.
Bravo for calling a “spade a spade.” (Maureen H)
Hope to see you at the prayer vigil tomorrow! Peace.
Denise
I agree with you. Kathy. There are egregious offenders unpunished due to SOL. There are bishops who turned a blind eye on what they knew was wrong and yet remain in positions of authority There are innocent priests who are thrown under the bus, And most importantly, victims who will never be healed. All I am trying to say is that It is a little more complicated than “either/or “
I did not sit through this trial. I did not sit in the jury room during deliberations. So I or anyone else who claims to have divine knowledge of why that jury found these two men guilty is just guessing. And guess away if you must. There are people in prison who are innocent. There are also many people walking the streets who are guilty and the jury let them walk. Our system of justice is not perfect.Anyone who witnessed the first OJ Simpson trial saw that clearly.Fifty two years ago this week, I was sexually molested by a Catholic priest as a twelve year old altar boy. As far as I know, that priest never paid for his crime.That priest died in 1989, around the same time, the memories of the abuse came back to me. There will be no justice for me, and thousands of others who were molested in an era where priests could do almost anything to a child and never pay the consequences. Times have changed. Priests, Bishops, Archbishops are now being held accountable for their actions. It is about time.
Jim I agree. What I have is the thoughts of all those who got away and many still out there. Lynn is in prison but Cullen and Cistone are not….Englehardt is in prison but Cudemo, Gana, Sicoli,some of the most notorious serial abusers remain free due to the statutes…completely untouchable.
People can analyze Billy and his addictions, the defendants, the jury, the verdicts..they can play armchair detective,psychiatrist..they can play this trial out in the court of public opinion as well as the appellate courts..but I remain stuck at the thought of all those who got away..I admire anyone who has a cause or passion for what they perceive is an injustice, in this case some feel it is the guilty verdicts. I feel the injustice was all those who simply walked and kids remain at risk, that is where I will put my energy and focus .
Kathy, you stated that you “…admire anyone who has a cause or passion for what they perceive is an injustice, in this case some feel it is the guilty verdicts.”
Without regard to the correctness of the verdicts in these particular cases, it has become very difficult to defend a truly innocent priest in today’s world.
I place the blame directly upon the prelates of the RCC worldwide. Through widespread and longstanding lies, deceptions, and covering for, and the defending of, priests they knew were guilty; the prelates have destroyed the Church’s credibility and moral authority.
The bishops of the RCC are ultimately at fault when an innocent priest is sent to prison!
These immoral prelates created an environment that is so corrupt that anything they say is almost impossible to believe. They have defended the guilty for so long that it is now next to impossible to protect the innocent.
Saint John Chrysostom said, “The floor of Hell is littered with the skulls of dead bishops.”
But, there may be hope! It’s all about blackmail.
Pope’s Reference To ‘Gay Lobby’ Broaches Taboo Topic
http://www.npr.org/2013/06/13/191377106/popes-reference-to-gay-lobby-broaches-taboo-topic
DrWho13,
I was thinking along the same line……the pendulum has swung the other way in favor of predators for far too long and it has now gone the other way towards the survivors and I am happy that our survivors are starting to be taken seriously.
What is it like for a 8,10 or 12 year to go through questioning by adults. During rape or being molested, what does a child remember? What would be reasonable for a child to remember going through a traumatic experience? Some adults can’t remember where they parked their park, yet some people expect a victim to remember an experience that happened years ago with an adult perspective when victim was a child. That child can remember so many details clearly, but other details were not important to that child -should they( unimportant details) determine reasonable doubt? What studies have been done on child victims? How can we put our adult perspective to judge truthfulness? How do the stages of development affect the child victim> On an earlier thread do adults believe children – why or why not?
egunn3000g:As I have previously stated, I repressed the memories of the abuse for many years. Depression, suicidal thoughts and self hatred were with me morning, noon and night. There was no room for remembering what had happened to me at age twelve. I often am amazed at how much I remember about the abuse today.I remember conversation between the two priests who were there that day. I remember the sequence of events, what I did after the priest let me go. I remember the screams from the other boy who was still being held in the church sacristy. I remember running to the Convent located a short distance from the front entrance of the church. But mostly I remember the embarrassment of having to take off my clothes and being forced to lay across fathers lap while he spanked ,rubbed and fondled me.So how did I recover the memories? It was not an easy task, nor all of my own doing. Firstly, I stopped using alcohol.That was certainly the first step.Two years after I stopped drinking, while in group therapy, the memories came back. There was A Catholic Priest in the group. I was also being sexually abstinent, a tool often used to recover memories.AS much as I do remember, I do not recall the name of the other boy. He was two grades ahead of me, and it was very unusual to have boys from different grades serving together. I often wonder what happened to him. What effects did he suffer? Is he alive today? I seriously doubt that I will ever know what the abuse did to him. But I do know what it did to me. I don’t think anyone who was not abused can fully understand all of the effects sex abuse has on victims.Your life is completely turned upside down. I believe that therapy early on can divert some of the effects. But back when I was abused it was difficult to get anyone to believe you. Thankfully that has changed.
Jim all that came to my mind was how sad and horrible….but at the same time its good to hear your story so that we remember why children need to be protected and that there are people who do evil things and sometimes they are where we least suspect.
Beth: Yesterday, after spending a wonderful day with my two children and grandchildren which included a gym recital that included my five year old granddaughter as well as a cook out and celebrating fathers day, I got home after a two and a half hour drive in time to catch the local news on a Harrisburg station. It was reported that a local pastor{not Catholic ] had been arrested for having very graphic child pornography on his home computer. . He claimed he didn’t know how it got there. This was in Shippensburg, Franklin County near where I now reside. When interviewing one of his neighbors, the neighbor claimed that the pastor was a very good Christian, a man of God and she didn’t believe what he was accused of doing. People have yet to realize that being religious, being a bible reader,being a man of God is no guarantee that the person will not abuse children.Sometimes,I think that those who claim such grand religiosity are more likely to abuse. But that is my own prejudice showing.But my point is that victims never escape the abuse,not their own or others. Every story of abuse today is a constant reminder of what happened to you yesterday, last week, or years ago. A perfect day can become not so perfect.
Jim, thanks for sharing. Knew Rich’s abuser and wonder how many victims he had, especially since he was assigned to a camp ( 7 to 14 years old). Lawyers promised me that there were many victims ( when I gave them the info I know), but still waiting for their cases. Their memories are probably still repressed, some too young to understand why that priest had kids sitting in his lap ( 7 year old). Almost positive he was teaching others in formation his techniques – yes a few confess to me their urges for 12 to 14 year olds, thank God I wasn’t a priest or it would have been confession. Think a few of them were also abused by priests, but again can not be certain, Since I lived with rapists and molesters as a religious and later had a few assigned to me, sick all of them so my perspective has been tainted by those experiences.
Again thank you to all the victims, I do need to keep so much in confidence to keep victims’ trust yet we need the victims to know they are not alone and your stories, I believe helps them.
For the record, I was posting as Ed, but now I am using my last name and word press id. Getting tired of reading articles knowing full well what happened to many of those ” good vocation” Tom Doyle warned you and as the custom – the church did not listen to God’s messenger.
I remember.
Jim, when I read your posts, I relate so much to your feelings about the abuse and the time frame of the 60’s. Please take this in from a fellow survivor of that awful time in our history, you are a miracle to be alive today. I so respect and honor you as a man of great insight, compassion and thoughtfulness. You have defeated the darkness and live to educate people about the ravages of child sexual abuse from the clergy, or nuns or any man or women who perclaim to be doing God’s work in order to excuse their criminal behavior. A loving and just God was literally stripped from us as he laid his sacred hands on our private parts. Remember Holy orders? Who do we go to now as a child for Hope and Prayer? I thank God everyday that I have found my own private relationship with God, I to, have vanquished the evil done to us and have survived. Jim, you are so right when you say no one, except a survivor will ever know how it felt like to be shredded inside and left to bleed. I celebrate your courage and strength!
Vicky: Thank you for your kind words. I look forward to some day meeting you. I plan on retiring next year and moving back to the Philly area. Maybe then we can meet up.
Jim, it would be my pleasure to meet with you. We will have a lot to share as well as some good stuff. In the mean time you are in my thoughts.
Did the two [2] refuse to testify in their defense ?
I don’t really know where to put this…but, when people are wondering about the long term effects of being abused by the clergy…here’s one for you. When my husband was 18, he purchased a life insurance policy through the K of C. Right after we were married, he added to his and I added a policy for me. Fast forward through the babies and new jobs and, and, and…our youngest is going to be 10 this summer. The same age husband was when he was abused. It was not something conscious, but husband started a process a few months ago to have all life insurance through a company that was not connected to the rcc whatsoever. Which meant transferring policies, etc to a new company.
We met with the new agent, went through all the medical hoops, filled out all the appropriate paperwork. Of course it’s completely routine to ask if one had ever made an attempt on their life. This brought up more questions about when, how, etc. It was all very routine and really just a typical experience for average folk. However, my husband has struggled…not with the thought that he could be denied insurance because of a suicide attempt, but because he could possibly be “stuck” with an insurance company that reminds him of nothing but abuse. He hates the thought of “feathering their nest” in any way. He also made the attempt on his life because of the abuse so factor that in.
It’s just a routine thing. But, this is the crap no one thinks about. It will all work out and he will walk through this admirably, like he has everything else.
I watched our son bounce through the house a couple of days ago, ready for the pool…goggles on. He looked so stinking cute and dorky and cute and quirky and cute….all smiles….and. so. innocent. He was the spitting image of his Dad.
I weep for the boy my husband was, what was robbed from him. Where is the man who stole his innocence? Where are the men who knew and lied? Living free and clear in Ohio…wearing red hats, baptizing babies and confirming teenagers.
God help us all.
Survivor’s wife + all those whose spouse or partner has been affected by sexual violence by people who use the power of their church to sexually abuse others.
I can’t imagine that moment when you first found out that you spouse was abused. The amount of trust the victim – your love one has in you and that point of your relationship where you made that person feel they could share. That sick feeling that you must have had realizing how someone you love was horribly abused and you could not be there to protect them. I can’t imagine how each milestone affects you and your partner, how certain questions causes both of you to look at each other as you know. How at night you wish you could change what happen or ease the pain because you love your spouse so much. How hard was it when your child hits that age when your spouse was abused or when your know your children need to break away and those fears of what others have done to your spouse won’t happen to your children.
I don’t know what to ay, but I hope you, Beth and all have some sort of support. You to are victims, not the same as your spouse, you are victims.
Ed,
Dealing with my husband’s abuser was easier than dealing with his enablers in a way……I know it sounds strange but the abuser everyone agrees is screwed up ………the enabler could have done something to stop the abuse but chose not to………either way no one can undo the damage that has been done. I believe healing is possible but it is a long painful road……..in my case my husband has a few addictions which is sadly common ………please keep us in your prayers our marriage might not last but I still hope one day he is whole again………
Beth,
My husband had an easier time forgiving his abuser, if you can call it easy, than he did the current hierarchy’s response to the abuse.
For exactly the reason you mention, I have found the same to be true.
You , your family and all on this blog are in my prayers. Thank you too for posting about Arthur. He won’t let us forget his courageous son.
Beth and SW, Thank you all for sharing Hopefully we can put these enablers where they belong.
SW,
My heart aches………….
Innocence being robbed. Heads turned. How can the RCC deny all that has happened to our little children? How can they look at themselves? Cardinals, bishops, priests. They’ve murdered the souls of many, and carry on. My heart cries for all of the victims/survivors, and I believe them. God knows all.
Pope Francis tells journalists to attack hypocrisy
Thomas Reese | Jun. 20, 2013 NCR Today
Pope Francis
“Journalists should “be uncompromising against the hypocrisies which result from the closed, the sick heart,” said Pope Francis to a group of Jesuit journalists. “Be uncompromising against this spiritual illness.”
Telling journalists to attack hypocrisy might sound suicidal to most church leaders, especially after more than two decades of investigative journalism on the sexual abuse crisis, but it shows how much Pope Francis hates the vices he believes undermine the Gospel message: clericalism, careerism and hypocrisy.”
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/pope-francis-tells-journalists-attack-hypocrisy
About time!
Sorry. I’m not going to ooh and ahh over Francis giving journalists permission to write about and report on clerical hypocrisy. Journalists are the ones who brought it to light over ten years ago. Over the years they were bashed relentlessly by a hierarchy in protection-mode. John Paul II, Benedict, and Francis have, to date, been utterly ineffectual in addressing clerical hypocrisy. Francis is a hypocrite to complain about it while simultaneously failing to take concrete measures to end it. Hypocritical clerics need to be laicized, women need to participate in the priesthood, and the hierarchical system needs to go. Do it, Francis! Until you do, you’re just another clerical hypocrite.
There is little point in hoping against hope, except that it makes me feel better. It’s time to get back to reality.
You are correct. “This ontological change business is the taproot of the sex/power abuse crisis. It must be changed and you (Kate) are right, will never be changed by institutional leadership” (Martin).
drwho13,
Francis wants journalists to “tell on” clerical hypocrites. He hopes it will make clerics think twice before they engage in clerical hypocrisy. If they fail to think twice, the public reporting of their hypocrisies will be their bad-behavior consequence.
Daddy-Francis is the father of a bunch of bad boy priests. However, Tradition holds that he be their Holy-Father-friend and salvage their priesthoods at all costs. So, in a smooth and discreet manner, he confers his paternal, disciplinary duties on journalists and the media.
What a cop out.
I’d give my right arm to be the Holy Mother of the bad boy priests.
drwho13, thanks for posting Francis’ speech. Glad to know the pope likes the idea of “dialogue”… What a concept! Lol.
Given what is known about the slimy church Francis leads, who cares what its leader says? or what he supports or approves of.
He can toss around all the flowery words and lofty ideas he wants, but everyone knows he’s sitting on one of the hottest messes in the history of mankind.
drwho13,
Pope Francis is in the middle of figuring out who to kick out of the Vatican the problem is there might not be one decent priest left to stay there. So much corruption, narcisscism, power and money involved I do wonder about his safety. Judas sold out Jesus for a few pieces of silver not much has changed…..people still get corrupted…. I hope God’s grace comes in greater abundance than the evil that is present in the Vatican…..
Beth, you stated, “Pope Francis is in the middle of figuring out who to kick out of the Vatican the problem is there might not be one decent priest left to stay there. So much corruption, narcissism, power and money involved I do wonder about his safety.”
The news video below supports your thinking, and shows the world a Church that is morally bankrupt, sad.
The video that is now showing is not the one I intended you to see; the site keeps updating. To view the video I’m referring to open the site that comes up; then click on “YouTube,” then click “Special Report: Gay Roman Clergy 06-27.”
drwho13; This is not exactly news to many of us concerned with the sexual abuse of children. Back in the eighties, I was working with a former seminarian of St. Charles. He told me many stories of sexual acts between seminarians and also between faculty and seminarians.The way he described it was Sodom and Gomorrah. At night time the seminary became like a gay bath house. It is very ironic that the week Michael Gandolfini was laid to rest, all of the mob like activities of the Vatican curia is also coming to light.Money laundering and illegal activities of all kinds are not to hard to believe coming from an institution that has been protecting child molesters and attacking victims for years.
Jim,
You are correct; this is not news to those of us who follow these matters. The critical element here is that this is the first time the public heard these facts coming from the lips of a Pope. The prelates can dismiss the utterances of the laity, but there is no denying reality now. This is the Church as it exists.
I meant James Gandolfini not Michael. Sometimes I can’y even remember my own first name. The Sopranos is my all time favorite series.
Jim Tucker –
I just caught your outrageous post.
I spent 5 years at Saint Charles (1960 – 1965) and can say in all truth that I never once witnessed or even heard any rumors of homosexual behavior. Not one.
This is an especially nasty insinuation, in the same vein as Judy SNAP’s claims that there are aborted babies’ bodies buried somewhere on the campus and / or black masses in the tunnels.
In the spirit of glasnost, how about identifying your “source”?
If this is not possible, how about the time frame when this particular seminarian studied at Overbrook?
Huh?
Joe,
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/seminaries/
“Back in the eighties, I was working with a former seminarian of St. Charles” – Jim states the 80’s not the 60’s
********
“According to the audit, 28 boys — double the number in the original report — were abused or subjected to inappropriate sexual behavior at the seminary by eight friars dating back to 1964.”
http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/report-documents-eight-decades-capuchin-provinces-poor-handling-sex-abuse
*****
“Reck also released a second letter, written in April 2008, to the alleged victim, a Delaware law enforcement official, after the man had met with Greenfield, the current oblate provincial.”
”While there are more than a few reasons for you to wonder about the appropriateness of how your complaints and concerns have been dealt with, from this point forward I feel that the two of us have cleared the air in matters concerning Fr. Killion,” Greenfield wrote.
Three months later, Greenfield recommended Killion to Cardinal Justin Rigali, the archbishop of Philadelphia, for transfer from Bishop Verot to St. Bede’s the Venerable Parish in Holland, Bucks County”
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2009/07_08/2009_07_05_Isherwood_SexAbuseSuits.htm
******
“This is a sad day for Father Charles Englehardt because, I believe, an innocent man has been sent to prison. Yes, child sexual abuse is wrong. It is criminal, and it is evil. Yet, Fr. Engelhardt did not commit this crime. Prior to the trial, he passed a polygraph test administered by an agent of the firm used by the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office. Also, his accuser, a convicted felon, changed his wild and fanciful story countless times before going to trial. While I respect the jury system in our country, I do believe that they erred egregiously in this case. I am fully convinced that if Fr. Englehardt had not been a priest, this case would never have been brought to trial. I know that he is an innocent man.
Since Father Engelhardt and his attorney are planning to appeal the decision, I am not able to comment further.
http://www.oblates.org/emailnews/signature.jpg“(signed by James Greenfield)
http://www.oblates.org/cfetrial_senten.htm
egunn3000g,
Thanks for the attempted clarification.
Jim stated that the conversation with a co-worker (who happened to be an ex-seminarian) took place back in the 80’s. It’s not clear to me when the alleged sexual behavior itself occurred. That’s why I asked the question.
As I stated, I was at Saint Charles from 1960 to 1965 and never myself witnessed any deviant behavior among my fellow students, and certainly not with the faculty.
I have to wonder about the veracity and motives of the former seminarian, whoever he is.
I’ve already read about the Oblates.
Ed: This is in response to Joe burkes reply to my Outrageous posting. Joe seems to be more outraged about this former seminarian breaking that “code of silence”, than about the sexual activity of the faculty and seminarians that was occurring at St. Charles in the seventies. I guess my coworker never quite got that code down right. I am sure there would be many reasons for leaving the seminary. This young man told me that this activity at St. Charles was one of the reasons he left. It has often amazed me that there have been very few priests who have come out in support of victims of clergy sex abuse. There are a few exceptions,notably Tom Doyle. But the vast majority of Catholic priests, most of whom have never molested a child, have done very little to support victims. As someone who witnessed priests in four years of Catholic high school appear to have eyes in the back of their heads, it is very disconcerting how few turned in fellow priests. Or maybe some of them tried,only to be met with this “code of silence”.But I will never be convinced that many knew what was going on, but could not bring themselves to break that code. I suspect that the code was learned at seminary. Recently, Congress has been holding hearings about the sexual harassment of female military personnel by senior officers,some of whom were expressly charged with protecting these young women. So the Church and the Mafia are not the only organizations, where this code exists.I guess it helps explain the us vs. them mentality that exists in the Church Hierarchy. Victims are the enemy and we must destroy them.Any empathy they can muster, goes toward our fellow priests, not to victims.The only justice and empathy that victims receive is through the courts.
Jim, I do get upset when I hear ” he looks like he is the age of consent”, “outrageous post, negative thumbs down or other reaction to someone expressing how a rapist priest describes other victims he raped and how they shared victims. The reason this verdict is important is they believed the victim. Victims over the decades haven’t been believed. In Philly we had a judge who stated someone was too ugly to be raped. The defense maneuvers did not work this time. Attacking a victim by the defense and realizing something happened at that church probably affected the jury. Charles has a right to appeal – what about those victims who could not appeal
Until the 80′ and mandatory reporting there was a real fear of civil action against a reporter of abuse. Had to discuss that with an observer and he did push it forward – as far as he could. Many had private settlements with the RCC, but some of the priests were just transferred. Thank God for google and search engine- now we can search for abusers – had a few minister catch potential rapists that way.
Talk to WWII vets discussing rape when going for R&R so these 19 rear olds had battle experience and then when dead drunk were raped. Because of civil suits non-Catholic church could not warn other churches because a lawyer would sue them. Rape and sexual abuse is a one on one crime in most cases and for years a priest’s word would be believed actually many rapists also,
Regarding training, I was in Washington DC and many different congregations/orders visited the gay bar Tom Doyle has discussed and many including priests/lawyers from PA the problems with gays and priest training. Tom Doyle gave those lectures about gay bars to a few religious in his order.
Blind obedience, code of silence and other misplaced loyalty oath. Also, the AIDS crisis and how religious reacted here and in other countries.
Yes they are attacking victims and claiming victimhood for themselves – what a terrible misjustice.
Jim Tucker,
Simply put, I’m outraged because I don’t believe his supposed story, not because of any breach of the so called code of silence.
Drwho13,
I had trouble posting the past couple days for some reason. Yes….a few people got arrested at Vatican bank, pedophile sex ring in Rome and selling communion to Satanists in Rome finally explains why the American catholic is corrupt also.
Our Survivors sadly knew along time ago…..just a horror all of it. I am not surprised after talking to so many victims..about Rome. I do believe spiritualwarfare is going on and a lot of prayer and action is necessary.
I meant American catholic church is so corrupt
Michael S. did you check out the June 28th column of Archbishop Chaput says a partial report of finances coming out July 3.
” I believe the victims”. Four rather simple words. For me four very powerful words. There are some who post on this blog who say this every time they post.To them, I say thank you. There are others who post here,who say every time they post:” I don’t believe the victims”.They don’t use those exact words. They question your veracity or your motives.Joe Burke is one of those who doesn’t believe the victims, not myself or Rich or Vicky or any victim. Never once have I heard Joe Burke offer any sign or symptom of empathy towards victims. The reason: He simply does not believe that any of the abuse happened.When I went home, after being sexually molested by my local parrish priest, I talked about the abuse the rest of Saturday and all day Sunday. My mother, a very devout Catholic heard enough and told me to forget what happened and not to talk about it again or else. Or else in my home meant a beating,usually with a belt, administered by my father on your bare behind. Understand that back then when a priest or nun accused you of something you were guilty. Because Priests and Nuns didn’t lie.Children were notorious liars. Joe is not alone in his denial that sexual abuse of children by the Catholic clergy occurred. Unfortunately, most of the Hierarchy in the Church believe the same thing.They may offer words that speak otherwise but their actions speak otherwise. So what is the effect on victims who are not believed. In many cases, victims who went to the Church and were deemed not credible, committed suicide. Others tried to commit “Crock Pot” suicide. They stewed in drugs and alcohol,slowly doing what they couldn’t do in a short brief act. This has happened everywhere that the abuse has happened. From Boston and Philadelphia to Davenport ,Iowa. The stories are always the same. Victims suffer the same effects and the Church responds in the same manner: Not believing the victims, questioning their motives,and attacking them. Joe Burke is more of the same. He is an apologist for a corrupt, evil institution that is in major decline.
Jim Tucker –
First of all, who is Joe Burke?
Secondly, I never said that I didn’t believe the account of your abuse, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I make a Holy Hour before the Blessed Sacrament every Monday at my local church at which I remember both those priests who have been wrongfully accused, those who are guilty as well as the victims of any sexual abuse.
My objection was – and still is – about the vile story your ex-seminarian co-worker told you about sexual misconduct at Saint Charles.
I spent 5 years there and can tell you in all truth that I never either witnessed personally nor heard any ‘scuttlebutt’ (no pun intended) about this kind of behavior. If I did, I would admit it. I adamantly don’t believe it.
To reiterate, I questioned his veracity and motives, not yours.
If you’d like my cell phone number to discuss further, I’ll gladly (somehow) get it to you.
Joe: I noticed the order in which you pray for those affected by this scandal. Priests are first with you always. From the first time I posted on this blog you have questioned my truthfulness. Deny all you want but you have no concern but for anyone but your fellow ex-seminarians and yourself. You are A total egotist. There has been widespread abuse allegations in almost every seminary in the United States. That is a fact. St. Charles is different because you went there? As far as your name is concerned, I wish I never heard it. You are a disgrace and an embarrassment to every graduate of McDevitt and every person that calls themselves Christian.
I miss Joan.
SW…thank you!
I have been fussing around on NCR as I didn’t want to violate Kathy and Susan’s focus on just abuse, and the protection of innocent kids…hugely important as that is. I have often, on NCR noted C4C and how very very much I have learned from you all! You can find me as AnonAP on NCR and I would love to hear from you!
Oops…it’s AnonAJ…my mind is like cream cheese!
Joan: I know I for one really miss your posts here.I believe We all learned more from you than the other way around. When things were slow, you always came up with an article from someone or other who shed more light on the subject at hand. I hope your husband is doing ok.Stop by and let us know how you are doing. You were always one of my favorites on this blog.
Beth…..I did see the article about the Financial Report for the Archdiocese. Posted the following comment on the archdiocesan website, catholicphilly.com. I’d be surprised if it is accepted by management and posted permanently to the topic.
“….The resources of the Church don’t belong to the bishops or the clergy or some remote institution. They belong to her people…..”
Then why does it seem/appear that the laity has little, if any, input re the decision-making and conduct that controls these resources? If the resources of the Church belong to “her people”, then allow “her people” access to the decision-making process and allow legitimate, reasonable, valuable and important input and ideas to flow to “the Church” (i.e, hierarchy).
Brace yourself. Today, the Archdiocese of Milwaukee will release its files relating to child sexual abuse. They span a shocking yet all too familiar 80 year history of abuse and cover up. The files will include Dolan’s deposition. His actions as one-time bishop of the Archdiocese are unconscionable. How Dolan can remain as head of the USCCB is beyond mind boggling.
Kate FitzGerald
http://fox6now.com/2013/06/30/archdiocese-of-milw-to-release-sex-abuse-files-monday/
“Depositions, for example, are not objective, but are one-sided by their nature. To try and ensure the documents are judged fairly, the archdiocese will create an objective timeline of events for each diocesan offender on the list of clergy with substantiated allegations of sexual abuse of a minor” (AD).
Oh! I feel so much better now. The archdiocese is going tell me what the depositions really mean.
“Much of the information in the documents is not pleasant to read. As a shepherd, I worry about those who will feel outrage, anger and embarrassment. I share those emotions. But none of these things should diminish the good work that has been accomplished these past 10+ years as we have worked fervently with abuse survivors to bring healing and resolution” (AD).
Let the spin begin!
drwho13, hands down, the most disturbing “spin” in my opinion is the assertion by the Archdiocese that the material in the files should be viewed in the light of “the times” and “the culture.” No time or culture could ever, ever, have the effect of arresting the natural, innate, human “moral law within” and conscience, whereby the sexual abuse of innocent children and its cover up (by religious leaders no less) are deemed anything short of criminal and immoral. Suggesting that “a time” and “culture” momentarily skewed their innate moral senses, blinding them to the hurt and devastation incurred by innocent children, and deeming its cover up acceptable, confounds the senses in its utter alienness from the human experience.
Kate FitzGerald
“I worry about the reactions of abuse survivors when confronted again with this material and pray it doesn’t have a negative effect on them,” he wrote. (Bishop of Milwaukee)
What a leader, Bishop LIstecki, that is! He previously earned a Juris Doctor degree from DePaul University,[6] making him the holder of degrees utriusque juris as Doctor of Canon and Civil Law.
What else would you expect from a clergy CIVIL attorney? He gives new meaning to the word “disingenuous”. NOW he worries about the effects of the clergy abuse on its victims……would someone please inform the Bishop Esquire that these victims and their families live this torture day in and day out?
“By transferring these assets to the Trust, they will be protected from any legal claim and liability” (Dolan).
As a civil lawyer Listecki might know if this transfer, when connected to the chapter 11, constitutes bankruptcy fraud.
Does anyone know if there could be a case against Dolan.
Astute observation!
skiadvocat: The late Anthony Bevilaqua was also a lawyer and held a degree in Canon Law. I guess the Bishop is following in his footsteps. Although if Bevilaqua had not passed away, I am sure he too would be holed up in a Pennsylvania prison, like his assistant, William Lynn. He was after all the one who gave the orders. Lynn was simply following his instructions. I just read that John Paul 2nd is well on his way to reaching sainthood. Perhaps, he could be named Patron Saint of Child Molesters.
micklega: The wonderful Archbishop of New York is in Gettysburg, Pa. this week. He will celebrate Mass as part of the Gettysburg 150th anniversary. Just what we needed.
Referring to “Skiadvocate”
drwho13……..just what I would love to see……..a civil attorney Bishop being criminally charged. Make my day!
“Owning up to the mistakes, Listecki said, took a long time because the church only realized that having sex with children was wrong when they looked back upon their actions” (The Guardian-Express).
What??? As a Catholic I have been getting moral direction from a Church that didn’t know it was wrong to have sex with children!!!!!!
A canon and civil lawyer wouldn’t say something that stupid, would he?
drwho13: Owning up to the mistakes took a long time because they thought they could get away with it forever. Nobody would ever stand up to Holy Mother Church. Well guess what? Victims and their supporters are standing up to the Church. And We will not stop til the Church admits its transgressions. The lies and deceit will not work anymore.
drwho13……..when an individual exists in an organization that never, ever has had to justify, account for, defend and explain their conduct and decision-making, this is what the outcome is……..total foolishness and hypocrisy
Joe; You finally crawled out from under the rug you have been hiding under lately. So nice to hear from you. As far as my source is concerned that is between him and I. If there is one person in this world I would not give this information to it is you. You are an apologist for the most corrupt evil institution that this world has ever known. I owe you nothing.
Hello? Earth to the American system of justice.
Citizen Timothy Dolan is guilty of bankruptcy fraud. When will we see him charged for his crime and paying the consequence of it?
Kate FitzGerald
Does anyone know who to contact in order to see if the Feds will investigate Dolan? How can I get the ball rolling?
Whatever happen to Jerry S. the Wall St.lawyer? He always had some good advice.
“One thing I’m impressed with,” said Sipe, “is that Pope Francis has mentioned twice that one of the biggest problems in the clergy is clerical narcissism — people think they’re above the law.”’
Sipe futher states, that “the clerical culture is one of double lives and double standards and a lack of responsibility. It has been around a long time and will probably take a very long time to enact change.”
Speaking of Sipe, the former Dominican and notable sociologist has reported for years via statistical date and first-hand reports the rampant sexual activity occurring in seminaries across the U.S. So, when a person reads the discussion between Joe and Jim regarding the issue, one denying it and the other attesting to it based on their seminary experiences, it becomes rather meaningless. Because Joe, as a seminarian, did not see or experience it, does not change the fact it happened and continues to happen. Joe’s truth is not THE truth. Jim’s truth IS.
Jim, I’m sorry you had to experience that.
Kate FitzGerald
Kate: I did not attend St. Charles or any other seminary.In the 1980″s I was working with a young man who had recently left St. Charles Seminary. He told me that one of the reasons he left, was because of sexual activity between seminarians and also between seminarians and faculty. Outside of two funerals and two weddings,I have not stepped into a Catholic Church building since I left High school. Don’t have any plans to in the future. Those places give me the creeps.