Several people sent me a press release issued by William Donohue of The Catholic League because it mentioned Catholics4Change in regard to Archbishop Chaput. The press release probably won’t get picked up but I’ll address some points.
I’m confused by why a Catholic civil rights group would find fault with a Catholic creating a blog where Catholics can freely speak. Here is a portion of his press release…
Still another group of malcontents, Catholics4Change, demanded that they “become part of Church leadership.” But wouldn’t that make them part of the dreaded “institutional Church” they so deplore?
Where did Mr. Donohue get the statement “become part of Church leadership?”
Here’s what we say on our About page.
“Catholics4Change.com was created to serve as a forum for Catholics who would like to respectfully share their concerns and questions regarding Church accountability to laity on a variety of issues – the most important being the protection of children. Catholics4Change strives to create a system of meaningful communication and solutions with Church leadership. Catholics4Change will offer related news, links and commentary from a variety of perspectives.”
I do believe that laity should be involved and vocal. The laity is just as accountable as their leadership. Does Donohue disagree?
Also, I don’t deplore the institutional Church. Perhaps Donohue doesn’t know that I worked for the Archdiocese and still have friends there. The institutional Church is responsible for a tremendous amount of good – Catholic Social Services, Catholic Charities, Catholic Schools, the Office for Disabilities, the Office for Migration and so on. I applaud their work.
As for being described as a malcontent, I agree. I’m not content with the handling of clergy sex abuse in Philadelphia. However, I do not hold Archbishop Chaput responsible for the alleged crimes or mess created by others. No flak here.
I am concerned about the civil statute of limitations regarding child sex abuse in PA. But that doesn’t make me a dissident. It makes me a concerned Catholic citizen and mother.
Catholics4Change 
Where does William Donohe get his facts? Hmm… from the same fairy that predicts my Sixers winning the NBA Championship in the current strike-cancelling season!
Just as it was in the John Jay Report, when the Church claimed that 10 year-olds are non-prepubescent and are capable of having sex, I once heard Bill Donohue claim the same thing in an interview with Anderson Cooper. For a moment after he said it, I thought Anderson was going to fall backwards out of his chair in disbelief. But then again, there’s a large group of Americans who actually believe his lies and unfounded “facts.”
For instance, Bill Donohue will get praise on FoxNews. Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck seem to love the guy, even though he believes 10 year-olds can be having sex with adult men (or women). Maybe they should all get together and meet up with Chris Hansen and see what he thinks.
Bill Donohue has a severe character flaw and he believes that victims are not victims at all, but just people who have a problem with the Catholic Church. He believes that sex, between an adult man and a 13 year-old boy, regardless of the forced nature of the event, is consensual and in his words “homosexual.” (By the way, I’ve always believed Bill Donohue was gay. My gaydar jumps off the charts when I see him on TV. But that would explain a lot. Most people who hate gays are gay themselves and they don’t have the courage to be themselves.)
Maybe he gets his facts from his long-lost brother, Phil Donohue, who always had some strange, totally unclassy, crackhead shows.
Just listen to this scumbag here: http://www.atheistmedia.com/2009/05/bill-donohue-denies-catholic-church.html
He should be in prison with the rest of them!
Bill Donohue calls child abuse survivors “Gold Diggers.”
Okay, Bill. How about you help me put all the clergy abusers and all those who knew about clergy abusers in prison for good?
95% of clergy sexual abuse victims will never get any money at all. So if we have still come forward, it must be for another reason other than money. Couldn’t that be a possibility?
180,000 sperm and this was the fastest???? Sheesh!
bill donohue is a “BIG BLOWHARD”, he is all gab and no jab, I invite him to face me and try to and convince me that the VICTIMS are only interested in money , however I doubt he will being the “COWARD” he is !
All the questions that were put to donohue were never answered, all donohue did was side step just like a politician !
DiPierre : anytime !
How about sorry that you were abused by a Priest Collin I can imagine that was a horrible experience or something along those lines………
How can anyone, for or against the institutional Church, take this man seriously? The man looks like, acts like, speaks like Archie Bunker from “All in the Family”.
Distortion and Obfuscation are his tools of the trade. He is so pathetic that he gives the term “bigotry” a bad name.
Does anyone that supports this man really believe that his efforts, interviews, statements and press releases are “advancing” the cause and/or providing a thoughtful and reasoned response to the legitimate and documented criticisms of the Catholic Church hierarchy?
Hey, what the hell do I know? The Catholic Church and religious orders still rely on the legal services of Mark Chopko, Stradley and Ronon and William Sasso’s go-to man for non-profit organization counsel, to advise and counsel them re sexual abuse lawsuits and litigation! And this is the man who was at the helm of the USCCB for twenty years as their General Counsel?
Good post, Michael. I was thinking he looked like Humpty Dumpty. Wait, actually Msgr. Lynn looks like Humpty Dumpty.
…and all the King’s horses and all the King’s men couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
I don’t want to focus on physical appearance. As my grandmother would say – “Pretty is as pretty does.”
I apologize, Susan.
Michael, right on! I will not dignify any response to this man’s retoric. Thank you for putting my thoughts so eloquently in words concerning this idiot.The catholic church can do NO wrong where this guy is concerned!
Bill must have taken one of those speed reading courses and when he read’s things he misses very important words. The sad and scary part is that people listen to his nonsense and nod their heads in agreement. He does have one thing right though, I am a malcontent.
Bill Donaghue is the $399,000 a year hit man for the Catholic church.
If someone says anything against the Catholic church, Bill distorts the truth (just like the Catholic bishops do), and riles up the Catholic congregation against the individual. Just Like Jesus Would Do.
When the recent John Jay College report came out, he was one of the first to scream “Let’s get it straight – its not pedophilia and its not rape” in his blog and on TV. He knew that they changed the definition of the word pedophilia for the study so that the cut off age was 10 and not 13. This meant that number of accused priests that were “pedophile priests” dropped from 72% to 22%, and he could now scream that to the congregation that wanted comforting information rather than the truth. Just Like Jesus Would Do.
He then called it homosexuality, saying “maybe it was consensual”. Anal sex with a 12 year old was now “consensual”. It was evil homosexuality. The congregation doesn’t need to read any more. They have the Catholic truth from a trusted source. One of God’s “false idols”.
The Catholic church loves him. In August, when a 16 year old girl victim in New York came forward because a priest was inappropriately massaging her on a daily basis, Bill Donaghue immediately blamed the victim. I would ask – why, in God’s name, is a priest massaging a girl? The priest blamed the victim for “wearing short skirts”. See the CBS story at http://cbsloc.al/pHEcen and draw your own conclusions.
Bill Donaghue immediately discredits the victim. Archbishop Dolan, the biggest Catholic in the United States, publishes Bill Donaghue’s story on the Archbishop’s blog at http://bit.ly/qYgyvI
Two of the biggest, loudest mouths in the Catholic church immediately discredit a poor, little 16 year old girl from the Bronx when she comes forward with the umpti-thousandth case of priest predator attacking child. She sees her world being crushed by an angry mob of a billion Catholics. All armed with hatred instead of truth. No compassion, no empathy, no concern. Just Like Jesus Would Do.
Think that will stop other victims from coming forward? You bet. Great legal strategy. Evil church.
Couple of punk mothers in Philly speak up? Send in Bully Bill the hit man, spread a few distorted truths to rile up the hateful Catholics, and maybe the meek, malcontent mothers will succumb to the pressure. Brilliant PR. Evil church.
Distort the truth.
Lie.
Hate.
Our billion can crush your million and their children, just like Jesus Would Do.
Bully Bill. Archbishop Dolan. These are your “false idols”. Not doing What Jesus Would Do. God didn’t make this difficult for anybody.
Whose side do you think God is on? Your answer determines your eternity.
Can anyone here imagine looking at a 10 year-old and thinking they are ready for sex? That’s just insane! Trust me, being abused at that age and younger and even a bit older, we were NOT ready for sex!
Correct, “Bill Donaghue is the $399,000 a year hit man for the Catholic church,” BUT NO ONE PAYS ANY ATTENTION TO HIM. If anyone believes that he makes any sense at all, they need to take a course in logic. He’s simply not credible.
Any negative comment he made about me I would take as a complement.
Actually, his opinions are re-quoted as facts all over, including:
1) This wasn’t child rape, it was homosexuality. Some Catholics LOVE this point, despite the fact that it is a complete lie, but it minimizes the child rape scandal and attacks homosexuality in one shot. Its premise is that the 11 or 12 year old that a priest has anal sex with actually consented. Here’s the formula
a) Over 10 years old? Not pedophilia (since they changed the definition of the word).
b) Two males? Homosexuality.
c) Now go blame and hate, because the Catholic church isn’t at fault
2) this problem happens everywhere else, too, so go pick on them instead
It happens in lots of places, but there are more child molesters by percentage in the Catholic priesthood that anywhere other than prison. More importantly, there has NEVER been an organization that intentionally concealed, protected, and actively moved known child rapists to new places where they could rape more children.
3) and gays and abortionists are just using liberal media to attack the church.
No, child rape is a big enough reason to attack the Catholic church. No one with a heart needs another agenda.
Billion_Bully_Battler,
Yes, unfortunately you are correct. “Actually, his opinions are re-quoted as facts all over…”
Many people so want to “believe,” that Bill Donaghue’s diatribe gives them something to hang on to in the “NeverWorld” in which they live. Such people simply are unable to grow-up and accept the Church for what it really is.
Donaghue serves as their drum major as they march through their Church of fantasy. Logic has no place in such a Church, so Donaghue does sadly have influence there.
In addition, the fact that Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan is a big supporter of Donaghue is another sad fact concerning the state of the RCC.
billion bully battler— r u really Patrick? no matter, that was a fantastically fine post. wish i had a puter that works i would have more to say.Bravo for the irishmen on the clip with Bill. They have the kind of guts i wish more had here in usa.
The ultimate malcontent St . John Chrysostom “the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops”
Hey if malcontent means I don’t like it when priests rape kids…….then call me a malcontent. I don’t want to take over the church I just want to stop the rapes.Does this sound familiar St. Catherine of Siena writing to the pope “I believe it would be more to the honor of God and better for yourself if you would always choose virtuous men. When the contrary is done, it is a great insult to God and a disaster to the Holy Church. We must not be surprised afterwards if God sends us His chatisements and scourges, for it is but just.” Ring a bell. Moral and finicial bankrupcy, people leaving the church, hundreds of thousands of abuse victims……………… by the way she was a malcontent too she called bishops “incarnate devils”.
By the way I pray for Archbishop Chaput the church in Philly is a mess and someone needs to clean it up. I would help in away possible.
“Anyway”
I still think laws need to be changed.
Thank heavens many are willing to debate Bill Donaghue and are willing to engage him in discussion.
We are all free to believe what we will; I believe that the reports are true. I want the discussion to contine, Donaghue notwithstanding. The people of the RCC, who are the RCC, must continue to face the terrible facts of our past. The healing will begin when all the people open their eyes and work to change the unhealthy practices and secrecy of the Catholic Church.
Wow, I hate to sound so pessimistic but I come to c4c every day and either agree or disagree with posts. But I always end the day with feeling helpless just doing things like writing letters to politicians, etc. If only one priest is willing to comment on this site, doesn’t that say something? These men don’t want reform, they don’t want the laws changed, they don’t want the Church to be the people’s church. I always thought that “we” the laity (of course not me personally anymore) are the Church. That’s just wishful thinking, the Church will always be the hierarchy. I hate feeling this way, but with the length of time it takes for trials, investigations, etc. is just heartbreaking. If this is how I feel, then how must the victims feel. Damn be to Bill Donohue and all those like him. No amount of money can ever replace what was taken from the survivors of abuse.
Abigail said, “If this is how I feel, then how must the victims feel.”
I can tell you how they feel…They feel like slitting their wrists and many have.
Abigail you sound much like I did years ago when you begin to realize how calculated and contrived every move the church makes in regard to this issue. I’m sorry you don’t have the church you thought you did.
Your first two sentences are why I blog. The vicitms have put up with enough callousness.
your right sw and that’s why I am no longer a member of the rcc. This group has really helped me realize that I made the right decision. I feel like a better person since I left. Actually, more compassionate and caring.
abigail said: “if only one priest …. doesnt that say somehing?….. it will always be the hierarchy…..”
You are absolutely right abigail—- and pray God more here and d everywhere learn and understand—– it HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE HIERARCHY—– LORDING IT OVER THE PEOPLE—— FROM THE GIT GO! Can u understand that it started when Paul said in Acts 21 that THEY would cme in like ravenous wolves. got to go.
I have made this error before– it is Acts 20 not 21. It is when Paul wanted to say goodbye to the elders in Ephesus:
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.Acts 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,Acts 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.Acts 20:33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.Acts 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.Acts 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.Acts 20:36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.Acts 20:37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him,Acts 20:38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.”
This is a personal favorite passage of scripture of mine— Paul knew he wouldnt see them again in this life and he departed without naming any so-called “apostolic successor(s).” It was to be the Word of God that guided the true church, no “apostolic succession.”
So, once again Pastor Chris, I plead with you to invite your clergy friends to post here. I also now made up my mind that I will no longer refer to priests as Father… they earned their seminary diploma so I will give them the title of Revererend or Pastor, but they are not my Father.
They will lose their jobs………bottom line.
Abigail, That is one of the awful things about being raped by a catholic priest, we called them father!
Bill Donohue may be a classic example of someone who has not resolved a deeply held hatred and rage which probably began early in his life and the outlet for this rage became what we see now as self righteousness in the form of spiritual narcisism. I would love to sit and talk with him some day and explore this. When he calls others malcontents he is actually projecting on to others his discontent and powerlessness which he faces on a daily basis because he cannot get others to think and act like he does. The church does not need defense, it needs humility.
He gets paid $8,000 a WEEK by the Catholicc Leaguee, so if you want to talk to him, get your checkbook out.
sickening
Hey, the devil doesn’t work cheap
sorry to say it ronald, but most catholics i know and live with say the same stuff he does.
Gerald, when I am around this personality style there is just such a hardness and aggressiveness that seems impenetrable. They are so psychologically defended against their rage and consequently cannot have the empathy necessary to understand the suffering of those who differ from them. If they were to humble themselves and be vulnerable like the victims of abuse it would frighten them to the point of an identity crisis with all of its panic, disorientation and shame flooding their awareness and causing a narcissistic psychosis. However, that is the only way to heal from what they fear and loathe in themselves.
I understand alot of bishops,priests and catholics like Donahue etc think everyone is “out to get them”. I am not. I just want them to take responsiblity for their actions or lack of action and help foster a safe environment for children and a healing climate for victims. I am very conservative in my views and believe everything the church teaches and I don’t like how he comes across. It’s kinda attack before they attack you mentality. I think humility with truth is a far better approach as you suggest.
Just think Susan…all the Catholic traffic that man just sent this way.
What will happen when they come here and actually read they aren’t alone?
Oh that crazy Susan…look what she’s done!
I won’t give that man my time or energy.
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe a few will actually read for themselves.
Bill Donahue has never let the truth get in the way of dramatic finger pointing and great talking points. I do wonder who is funding that salary. Somebody is benefiting from the confusion that Mr. Donahue stirs up and I would like to kow who that is.
Molly… Catholic,neo-conservative groups fund Donahue. There are several of them. Together, they are sometimes referred to as “The New Rite.”
He makes a large contribution to the propensity of Catholics to be ready to play the “victim card.” That is, they respond to critique of the unbiblical aspects of their religion by claiming to be “victims” of “anti-catholics” and “hate-filled Protestant” critics.
Four Walls, One Faith, No Identity…
This film brings up how I was treated by the nuns in grade school, in their basement of the convent. I saw from both priests and nuns horrific cruelty. It has taken me years to talk about the priest cruelty, I just now am beginning to open up about the nuns! I would come home after being beaten knowing I had to ACT normal or my parents would blame me for what happened. I give Rich so much credit for opening up about his history on this blog, I still struggle to let too many people into my sacred world.
Fr. Chris heard some survivors speak at the day of sorrow which I think he was referring to, I was one of those who stood before many priests and spoke about what happened to me, to him I would like to say, it is one thing to LISTEN to ones story, quite another to HEAR the pain that permeates through us every day. The Divine God walked among the lepers and people who were not excepted by others in their society, He administered with love and solace and non-judgement, indeed, where are these “good” priests who are hiding behind their Fear!
.
I heard that talk Vicky and I remember you speaking………..I thought that was you. I just didn’t feel right asking if it was you. I think they might be hiding behind “obeidence” if they are not scared of losing their jobs as the above thumbs down seems to indicate. The only other reason I can think is they don’t want to feel like we are ganging up on them because in a way we are………but if they were to see past that there is just alot of pain underneath
Vicky, I am not able to make a judgement on whether someone HEARS or LISTENS, each one of us must make that movement in our own lives. Speaking for myself, I have LISTENED and witnessed the pain of sexual abuse in the lives of many people. I know of other priests who have LISTENED as well – and even priests who are victims of abuse. Some priests, like some lay people, are still not listening for a variety of reasons, including the lack of desire. But many have listened and are listeing.
I hope you’ve communicated this response directly to Mr. Donohue. I’d like to hear his explanation to your refutation. You’ve always made it quite clear that you don’t want to tear down or run the Church, but you believe the time for acquiescing and accepting all they do is over. One’s conscience, intellect, and caring for others allows no other path. What has been going on is calculatingly evil and seriously harms so many. Mr. Donohue can look to the now organizing priests who have witnessed this ongoing tragedy and whose good names are now besmirched by this scandal. He should get away from the CMA crowd and go out in the trenches.
The problem with Bill Donohue and Catholic leaders is their unwillingness to listen to victims and to all the evidence that proves children are not ready to engage in sexual behavior. However, it goes much further than that when it comes to authority figures. The law clearly states there to be an age of consent, because many children lack the maturity and unstanding of how sexual contact, especially with a much older adult, can be harmful, confusing, and wrong. It becomes even worse when those who have abused us are authority figures like priests and teachers, parents and caretakers. Even if a priest did not penetrate the child he’s a accused of abusing, in my eyes it is still rape. If you force or coerce a child in performing gross sexual acts, and you use your position of power and authority over that child in order to manipulate he/she, you are a rapist!
10 year-olds cannot consent to sex. That is just insane thinking. Research has shown that teenagers who engage in sex before the age of 18 are more likely to become drug addicts, alcoholics, acquiring STDs, becoming parents, and even raising the statistics on abortion. If the Catholic Church is so dead set against abortion, they should stop raping little girls. Or maybe that’s why they prefer to abuse us boys, because we couldn’t get pregnant?
The only logic there is in abusing a child is because they child has a less of a chance of saying “No!” and fighting back than a grown adult. Priests use their power to manipulate a child… a child like I was, who was told by his mother to “go to the priest before you go to the cop.” That’s the level of belief my family has within the Catholic religion. Now if a young boy is being abused by the priest, how is he supposed to even imagine going to the cop?
The only thing I agree with, after hearing Bill Donohue and Catholic leaders speak is “a very small number of child sexual abuse victims are abused by Catholic clergy.” I absolutely agree with that. You get no argument from me there. But if that is truly the case, and the majority of kids are abused outside of the Catholic Church, why do Church officials lobby in our State legislatures to prevent laws from passing that would protect all children in society from ever being sexually abused?
Rich, I need to add something here about abuse.
I don’t have all the right words about this, so help me out if I step on toes…
Your story is horrific. The stories of thousands of children abused by clergy are horrific. No one can deny that some of the things you’ve shared are beyond comprehension when it comes to abuse. However, there are abuses that fly under the radar because they don’t “measure up” to what some experienced. Our model of what abuse is cannot only be someone who had the most severe perpetrated on them. The kid that was uncomfortable when Fr. So and So made googley eyes at him/her was also abused….the child that was “rubbed” on the shoulders in a suggestive way by Fr. So and So was abused…the kid who was hugged by Fr. So and So like married people hug was abused. The child who was kissed once by a priest, had a hand stroke their leg once by a priest…was abused. It’s a violation of their boundaries, period. They are completely innocent until the moment an adult crosses those lines…and those lines are determined by the child, not the adult. Using a child for adult purposes is abuse, whether it was physical or not. How about Fr. Weirdo that befriends a teenager, pals around with them, takes them places in order to talk and have deeper “friendship” with them? Whose needs are getting met there? In my book, that’s abuse too…an abuse of position and power.
I think it’s worth noting that some children who haven’t experienced the most “severe abuse” based on how adults see it, can have just as much to work through as someone who has experienced prolonged, more invasive abuses. I’ve sat in meetings and listened to people share. The abuses perpetrated were horrific…and yet there is always that person, after hearing about someone else’s abuse (that was severe and prolonged) …prefacing their sharing with, “Well, I didn’t go through anything like So and So did, but…” I always want to add…”but, the abuse you experienced messed with your head, heart, and spirituality, just like So and So.”
So, they can talk about ages and consent and all their other garbage, but it all boils down to a sexually deviant adult violating a child. How about this…they groomed the child to a point where the child then becomes participatory (not always)…and therefore they see it as “consensual.” There is NOTHING consensual about an adult being sexual with a child, EVER. It’s all a part of the pattern of abuse. We don’t need research to tell us cut off ages of children and sexual maturity.
Years ago, there was a mind-set that a woman being molested was not as bad as a woman being raped. How messed up is that? “Well, at least she wasn’t raped.” How is that any consolation for a child being violated? Now, we have the Catholic version of, “well at least they had the magic birthday, so their boundaries weren’t violated?” I don’t think so.
SW,
I’m not really the type of person who argues over whose abuse is worse. What information I have posting on this site regarding the dtails of my own abuse doesn’t account for one-third of what happened to me. I merely write what I am comfortable writing about, mostly details that were already made public when I came forward against my abusers. Believe it or not, I’ve heard stories that I believe rival my own, that are much worse that what I feel happened to me. However, as abuse victims, we often minimize the abuse we suffered as a way of coping with it. Many times I have thought to myself, “Oh it wasn’t that bad, I just need to move on.” Actually, details of my abuse, I have found, rank me near the top of any victim I know with just how severe it was, but as a victim I continue to minimize it in the hopes that I won’t let it consume me.
Just like people who say I should protest at public schools and daycare centers because abuse happens in those places also. I wasn’t abused in daycare or in public school, so I use what I remember to push me forward. I think any contact between and adult and a child, where the adult is kissing, fondling, and smacking the child on the butt is definitely inappropriate. But when I describe abuse, I think of my own abuse and I use that as a frame of reference. I know other kids can experience the same depression and mental anguish from just being touched or kissed, even though they weren’t raped. But in my mind, when I write, I use my own past experiences. I wasn’t there to see those other kids being “only” touched, and I wasn’t “only” touched, so I have no experience with that. My opinion comes directly from my own experiences.
Does any of that make sense?
It makes sense to me, Rich.
Your explanation of minimizing the abuse makes perfect sense too.
My friend gave me an analogy one time about minimizing our pain. She said, “Just because you lost one arm in an accident doesn’t lessen the pain because you learned someone else lost 2 arms.” Gave me something to think about anyway.
To Survivors wife: This is what I believe. Everyone handles abuse in their own way. For someone, just a kiss, a touch, a pat on the buttocks, can have a devastating effect on that person. One incident can distroy a person. I honor anyone’s pain and never want to look at it as not as bad as mine. Pain, is pain and the level of that pain can be deep no matter if it happened once or a million times.
Your logic is easy to follow Rich.
Since Wild Bill gives out ad hominum attacks I feel it’s OK to point out that this bully is divorced and could not keep his own family together.
And where does he get the millions he uses to run that shop he has. His salary is $400,000 plus expenses. The first offices were in the NY Chancery but they now have their own digs. .
Interesting.
Now this is an interview worth watching.
For some reason I cannot post or reply on Knowing what I know, how can I still ….. I tried to reply to Rev. Walsh, now Philadelphiapriests, but could not, so Pastor Walsh, my reply to you in on the Rolling Stone blog.
It started working again hrs ago
Oh yes, I’ve seen that video. I also remember getting into an argument with another Youtube user named Sleazybtd who not only accused me of saying things that weren’t true, he/she also wouldn’t analogize for them. Not at first anyway. Too bad he/she claims not to believe in God. According to 1 John 5:12, he/she is therefore no better than a child molester.
To survivors wife, how true your post is. When I heard Bill Donohue say the just because a priest kissed or grabbed a child by the behind does not make it rape, does it make it right? Technically it is not rape, but for crying out loud it is abuse in the worst possible way. If I had a bunch of teenagers in my house partying with them and giving them alcohol, I would be arrested and charged with a crime. Yet, Mr. Donohue seems to see nothing wrong with a priest doing these kind of things. Abuse is abuse. If he thinks getting smacked around by some nun years ago in Brooklyn was no big deal, I think it was a big deal and that is exactly why he is the way he is today, unfeeling, insenstive and probably capable of smacking someone else around. Why am I not surprised that he is divorced, he’s certainly not the type of man I could be married to.
When people like Bill Donohue say that victims are gold diggers, it completely disregards the pain victims have suffered in their lives. He doesn’t know what it’s like to constantly beg the priest who is abusing us to stop. I don’t think it has occurred to him just how devastating such contact can have on a child, and how that child will mature into a lifetime of insanity, confusion, and depression. When the most personal thing you own, your body, doesn’t seem to be yours anymore, but becomes something that you’re afraid of because an adult man was attracted to you as a child, and was able to make our own bodies turn against us, it just sets the mind up for disaster. Luckily, and it is all luck, I haven’t been one of the dark souls who couldn’t live anymore and was successful in suicide. I tried suicide, but failed. I tried to drink myself to death, and that failed too. I’ve even put myself in a lot of unsavory and risky situations that could have resulted in death.
“When I grow up, I’m going to get revenge against this a$$hole. Why is this happening to me? It hurts. I want to die. Somebody help me. Who could I tell? Will I get into trouble? Will they kick me out of school? Am I going to hell? What is wrong with me? I must be a really bad person. I’m worthless. I’m dirty. What if my parents find out? Do you think God saw this happening? I’m sorry God, I didn’t mean to. Why won’t he just leave me alone? Is it me? It’s my fault. What did I do wrong?” That is just a few of the many, many questions I had asked myself during the abuse, and after it ended. Being touched, forced to perform oral sex, or his forcing oral sex on me, or being raped, kissing, massaging, threats, physical torture just messes with the brain so much.
Shame. Humiliation. Anger. Regret. Hate. Depression. Degredation. Loss. Unloved. Tears. Insanity. Sadness. Blame. Confusion. Heartache. Dissociation. Nightmares. Panic. Terror. Deceit. Fraud. Anxiety. Abandonment. Worthlessness. Fear. Darkness. Soulless. Suicide.
I wonder if Bill Donohue or anyone in the Catholic Church ever experienced all of these issue in just one moment of thought.
V4J,
This was brilliantly written, and should be a blog post unto itself. Anyone with an ounce of compassion would be sick reading it, and would want to do anything to help the child that was raped in God’s church.
Catholics no longer have this compassion, which is the genius of the devil.
Donaghue and the bishops and priests in the Catholic church all know similar stories of thousands and thousands of children like you. They read it in the Philadelphia Grand Jury report. Here’s the hard and obvious truth – they just don’t care.
Catholics no longer care about your stories, which is the genius of the devil.
They also don’t care about the truth.
If Donaghue or bishops or priests wanted the truth, they could all demand that priests take lie detector tests to prove their innocence. If priests knew they were innocent, they would be SCREAMING to volunteer to do it. They know there are too many guilty ones.
If they fail one test, take another. Fail twice, take another. Eventually, the guilty would admit it. They could force guilty priests to name the unnamed victims, and go help them before they commit suicide. These are simple solutions, and could be implemented even if local laws didn’t allow it, as long as the congregation demanded it.
Catholics don’t care about the truth, which is the genius of the devil.
Catholic DO care about money, and so does their congregation. When they say you’re a gold-digger, the congregation immediately has a reason to discredit you and fight you. They aren’t giving up their money and their big beautiful churches. After all, they spend 40 minutes a week there.
Catholics care more about money than children, which is the genius of the devil.
I believe you were put here for a reason, V4J. You have immense courage. The Catholic church has none. You have been given the Internet and social media. God has your back, and God has my back, and the back of everyone in this fight.
The genius of God is that he made it so simple to see the genius of the devil. Catholics will get to decide whether to follow the “false idols” in the Catholic church, or follow the laws of God, and you can help educate them. The genius of God is that they have to bet their eternity on it.
That was beautifully written Patrick.
Patrick in the blog “After all that I know…….” I was not talking about you in the last two sentences. I tried to correct it but was not able to for a few hrs. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Patrick, you stated, “stop donating, period, since that is the only control they’ll understand.” That’s what keeps the corrupt machine running; I can’t see a more effective way of stopping these slime bags.
It’s ironic that the money people are putting into the collection is the same money that will be used to pay for lawyers who will be working against the contributors.
I have a question. I know we asked this before. Besides changing the laws and putting these pedophiles in jail and stopping giving them money what else do we need to do as catholics and citizens of this state? I mean in detail and as realistic as possible. I really want to know what you have to say. Suppose the laws were changed and alot pedophile priests were put in jail then what? Any other ideas. No child should be that young and go thru all those thoughts…………I know you stil deal with it today.
A few ideas:
– stop donating, period, since that is the only control they’ll understand
– open up a permanent. fully paid account with child sex therapists so that any victim can go to any therapist for help any time and not worry about paying $50-250 an hour. Sell churches if you have to
– actively seek out victims
– make every priest take a lie detector test. If they fail, they get to take a 2nd or 3rd. Then find out who their victims are and (confidentially) find them and help them
These could all be implemented by noon Monday.
Some interesting ideas Patrick. I like the therapy idea. I was wondering how victims feel about “actively seek out victims”? I have heard both sides of this. If someone is being presently abused I think yes we should find them and help them and stop the abuse. But what about people who were abused in the past? I have heard different views on this.One is if you seek them out they get the help they need and don’t feel alone. The other side I have heard that if they are not ready to deal with the past this can make things worse. By actively seek out vicitims Patrick did you mean only those being victimized now? In that case”yes” find them and help them but in the case of past victims I guess there is were my questions arise. So in the interest of discussion do most victims think it would have helped them if someone actively sought them out to get help rather than the vicitm doing it themselves when they are ready?
DrWho13,
Can you elaborate how the money put in the basket by people works against the contributers? You mean the victims or people trying to change the laws? or something else?
Beth asks, “DrWho13, can you elaborate how the money put in the basket by people works against the contributors?”
By ‘contributors’ I mean the people who put money in the collection basket during Mass, or give money to the Church in other ways.
For example, the very money the parishioners donate is used to pay attorneys to defend priests like Msgr. Lynn (no public defender involved here.) Certainly at one time or another, a parent who contributed money to the Church, later sued the Church, because their child had been sexually abused by a priest. Thus, the parent’s contribution was in fact used by the diocese to defend a priest that those same parents sued. So, the money the parents (contributors) donated to the Church “works against the contributors,” in that it is now being used in an attempt to defeat the lawsuit filed by the ‘contributors’ themselves.
drwho13,
Very few parents sue the church…it’s the child that grows up and realizes the extent the abuse has taken on their life that usually sues the church.
Essentially, it’s the parents (and other parishioners) that have funded the defense team against their own children. How sick would that make you feel as a parent? The parents paid to protect the abuser, paid the bishop to move them all over the place, paid the legal team to conspire ways to literally re-victimize their child again. We can all see how it would hurt the family members…but, what if you are a practicing catholic in the pew who feels strongly about what’s happened and how it’s been handled? Does it really hurt you to support your church? You must know you are trusting the very people that lied about child rape, lied to their parishioners, lied to other priests, lied to the children who came forward, lied to the public, and now stay silent. Are you being a good steward of what God is giving you knowing what you know? I suppose that’s between you and God.
Do you have any idea who funds the little “luncheons” that are hosted for the hierarchy? How about the meetings for the defense teams? The flights, meals, and lodging for depositions and “private little meetings” with the accused? Bishops Conferences? The chancellors that are “schooled” in legaleze and public relations skills? The priests’ trainings on how to handle this “issue.” The media blast of “Come Home?”
I used to waffle about catholics contributing to their church… but today, I know for certain the money is being misused, regardless of what they tell their flock. I KNOW it. I’ve seen it first hand. I’ve watched them lie and twist words so parishioners would still contribute. Their language is money. If you want them to hear you, you must speak their language.
Each time a parishioner contributes to the catholic church to do with as they choose, essentially they are TRUSTING the church to be wise stewards of that money. Even the “good” priests whom you do trust are obeying their bishops at all costs, literally. Fr. Chris (and others) clearly point that out. Some will say, “What about all the good the Catholic Church does…what about that?” I believe that if you want the money to go to the food pantry…walk your check to the food pantry. If you want money to be given to the homeless…make your check out to the homeless. If you want your money to support victims, then donate to entities that truly support victims.
“When people show you who they are, believe them. “ Maya Angelou
I believe them. I believe they have mismanaged things far greater than the finances.
Survivor’s wife, You’re so right! That’s why I’m out. I no longer give the Church a penny. I do however buy a homeless person a meal when I have the chance. Doing little things for people on an individual basis now works best for me.
“How sick would that make you feel as a parent? The parents paid to protect the abuser, paid the bishop to move them all over the place, paid the legal team to conspire ways to literally re-victimize their child again.”
You said it so well; great insight, it turns my stomach. I just seem to despise the institution more and more as the days go on.
Survivors wife you have made alot of good points. I have heard ………say exactly what the money is for and your parish keeps it otherwise a certain percentage goes downtown. I have heard recently at other parish the pastor was upset the archdiocese was taking more money than originally it said it would take. I am not sure if that was just for that parish and it was from general collections or from the fundraiser that Archdiocese recently ran but he was not happy.
patrick, right on and rich, that should be a post of it’s own. Still waiting to be one of the first to order your book from amazon or wherever. Your writing hits the heart and soul and ooozes of nothing but the truth.
from http://www.novozinsky.com
I’m concerned. It seems that the most recognizable member of the Church Hierarchy, Archbishop Timothy Dolan and the strongest Catholic Organization have come together to go on the attack of those speaking out against clergy abuse.
It appears that the “Long Lent” imposed by Pope Benedict the XVI is over.
The Catholic League is an American Catholic anti-defamation and civil rights organization. Describing itself as “the nation’s largest Catholic civil rights organization,” the Catholic League states that it “defends the right of Catholics – lay and clergy alike – to participate in American public life without defamation or discrimination.” The Catholic League states that it is “motivated by the letter and the spirit of the First Amendment … to safeguard both the religious freedom rights and the free speech rights of Catholics whenever and wherever they are threatened.
Its Board of Directors president, William A. Donohue is a destructive and impulsive man that leads the Catholic League as a bully on a bully pulpit.
Donahue’s group drew fire in December in renting a $20,000 billboard in NYC to counter an Atheist organization’s anti-Christmas message. It was $20,000 that could have spent on the city’s homeless and poor is what I posted at the time.
This past week Donahue once again raised eyebrow when he once again spent the Catholic Leagues money with a $30,000 full page ad in the New York Times that lambasted those that dare to speak out against priests sexual abuse (see http://www.catholicleague.org/nytstraighttalk.php . The ad blames the media, the lawyers and of course “the gays.” But as reprehensible as that is, it’s his following statement that had my stomach turning; “The refrain that child rape is a reality in the Church is twice wrong: let’s get it straight—they weren’t children and they weren’t raped. We know from the John Jay study that most of the victims have been adolescents, and that the most common abuse has been inappropriate touching (inexcusable though this is, it is not rape.” Can you say anything else but “O-M-G”.
But this comes at a more than coincidental time because of the recent encounter involving Archbishop Dolan in an airport. To hear it told, the EXACT same argument that Donahue made in the New York Times ad was used by Dolan when he had a chance encounter in Denver.
From Dolan’s blog: “…As I was waiting with the others for the electronic train to take me to the terminal, a man, maybe in his mid-forties, waiting as well, came closer to me. “Are you a Catholic priest?” he kindly asked. “Sure am. Nice to meet you,” says I, as I offered my hand. He ignored it. “I was raised a Catholic,” he replied, almost always a hint of a cut to come, but I was not prepared for the razor sharpness of the stiletto, as he went on, “and now, as a father of two boys, I can’t look at you or any other priest without thinking of a sexual abuser.”
What to respond? Yell at him? Cuss him out? Apologize? Deck him? Express understanding? I must admit all such reactions came to mind as I staggered with shame and anger from the damage of the wound he had inflicted with those stinging words. “Well,” I recovered enough to remark, “I’m sure sorry you feel that way. But, let me ask you, do you automatically presume a sexual abuser when you see a Rabbi or Protestant minister?” “Not at all,” he came back through gritted teeth as we both boarded the train.
“How about when you see a coach, or a boy scout leader, or a foster parent, or a counselor, or physician?” I continued. “Of course not!” he came back. “What’s all that got to do with it?” “A lot,” I stayed with him, “because each of those professions have as high a percentage of sexual abuse, if not even higher, than that of priests.” “Well, that may be,” he retorted. “But the Church is the only group that knew it was going on, did nothing about it, and kept transferring the perverts around.” “You obviously never heard the stats on public school teachers,” I observed. “In my home town of New York City alone, experts say the rate of sexual abuse among public school teachers is ten times higher than that of priests, and these abusers just get transferred around…”
Hmmm.
I am not implying that Dolan is lying. Not at all. I have had more than a few email exchanges with the future Cardinal and he is a good and honest man – I am more than implying that this was a rehearsed reply thought waiting for a change encounter – it just happened to occur the same week as the New York Times ad.
But what Donahue and Dolan say is more than true; other “occupations” do have their share of sexual abusers. Teachers, accountants, doctors, nanny’s, IT professionals; name it. But the difference is that once they are discovered they do not have the protection that the Church offers. They are tried and punished. The Hierarchy and it’s hench-organizations such as the Catholic League and its apologists (re: John Allen) are taking a dangerous step towards re-violating the abused with its new strategy of taking the offense (and I do see the coincidence in the timing of the ad and the encounter) and are playing the “blame game” with other groups. GUILTY IS GUILTY. Covering up is GUILTY X 2.
So this week I am reaching out to the Catholic League to look into the case of Father James Selvaraj and asking them to put up or shut up. If they are stating (and they are) that innocent priests are getting the shaft (figuratively) then come out and defend him and insist that he be reinstated.
Please don’t let those comments get to you. Keep up the good work so five years from now we’re not in disbelief again that these horrible crimes are still happening.
Chat room discussion tonight on http://www.Victims4Justice.org
9/19/11
7pm – 9pm EST
Maybe some would like to participate?
I haven’t had much time in recent months to provide this online meeting and to update my website because of an illness in the family. Two months ago, my mother was diagnosed with Stage 4 Glioblastoma brain cancer and given less than 7 months to live. I have two brothers who are unwilling to help out, and since my father is a business owner and is away for 12-16 hours per day, the duties of caretaker has been left up to me.
I haven’t actually been close with my mother over the course of about 15-20 years, but somebody has to step up and take on the responsibility of caring for her and I felt compelled to do it. It’s a 24/7 job and I have actually moved into my parents house and I have been there for the passed 5 weeks, with the exception of the next 4 days I’m getting to spend at home before I have to return there on Thursday morning. So I thought it might be a nice idea to have the chat room meeting, if anyone is interested?
Please, if anyone has a few extra bucks, there’s an organization called “The Love of Linda Foundation.” When my mother was diagnosed with this cancer, the LLF sent my mother a check for $300, as they do with every resident in Cape May County, NJ who has been diagnosed with cancer. I have donated $1,500 to their foundation and I’d like you to donate as well.
Good people, who, in spite of tragedy, have overcome to help make a difference in the world. That’s everything.
Does anyone really believe that the Catholic League is anything but a very lucrative enterprise concocted by a loser who figured out how to whip up hysteria and to fund-raise
to the extent that he can pay himself $400K a year?
Catholics don’t have TV preachers, begging for donations, and skimming the cream off the top to keep them in lavish lifestyles and limos. (Well, then again… but Donahue sort of predates the whole EWTN stardom-thing. Or maybe it’s just that the EWTN “stars” saw Donahue’s success and said ‘by God there’s gold in them thar hills!!!'”
I might have to unsubscribe from this blog. It makes me so angry. With the Church, of course. And now also with Bill Donohue. The words of King David come to mind here: “There is none who is righteous. Not even one”. Psalm 14:3
Seriously, now I see why so many people don’t believe in God.
Mark it’s worse than you can ever imagine. We must be lights in the darkness. I have encounter Christ and Satan working thru people. That’s why I continue to believe. I see so many losing faith and l see who’s largely contributing to it and that’s make me angry and more determined to search for the truth and fight evil and sometimes it includes fighting the evil and sin in myself with God’s help because if we are not fighting for God then we are allowing ourselves to be used by the devil thru our actions or lack of actions.